@ubuntourist Only that none of that has anything to do with socialism.
Socialism is if you celebrate the chance of working a third shift for the glory of the party, while the village idiot and former school bully celebrates at the top of mountain with his buddies holding opulent orgies.
And those who dare ask questions are considered dangerous counterrevolutionaries and get a visit from the secret police, spend years in jails, ge tortured, and are sometimes never seen again.
@greve
I think you might be trolling.
But what you're describing seems to relate to corruption, such as happens regularly in Russia, or the USA. Corruption can happen under any form of governance.
No, just speaking from experience and history.
Europe has all the things listed. But there isn't a single socialist country among them.
In fact, Eastern Europe had socialism. And crumbled under failing infrastructure, public service, and economy. I don't know anyone there eager to repeat the experience.
What you're looking for is typically referred to as Social Democracy / Social Market Economy / Ordoliberalism.
@Nike_Leonhard @iwein @ubuntourist Quite a number of countries all over the world and with different cultural backgrounds tried out Socialism.
As far as I am aware, the end result has always been nepotism, corruption, dictatorship. Even if it started with the best of intentions: It turned into Animal Farm each time.
By this point in time it's a case of "Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different outcomes..."
@greve @iwein @ubuntourist
Orwell was a socialist btw. Animal Farm is about stalinism.
And talking about same outcome ...
That's an invalid argument because looking at USA, Brazil, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Germany and so on, you could as well say the same about capitalism or liberalism.
@Nike_Leonhard @iwein @ubuntourist
Orwell, like many smart people of his time, had a phase where he was leaning towards Socialism. But in the 1950s his stance was probably more that of a pro-democracy, libertarian socialist.
Whataboutism isn't a great response when being prompted to come up with examples for when Socialism did not turn into nepotism and authoritarianism.
Yes, countries can fail with other systems, too. But available data indicates they are guaranteed to fail with Socialism.
@Nike_Leonhard @iwein @ubuntourist
Will agree that labels are tricky.
The GDR was in truth a GSR. And left a human, environmental and structural catastrophe.
And yes, there is an evolution of political systems, as well. Which is why it seems pointless to offfer ideas of the early 1900s as answers for 2050 forward.
Those answers may have had good points, but ultimately, they failed due to human nature. Plus, the world has gone forward, not back.
@Nike_Leonhard @iwein @ubuntourist
And yes Some countries fail.
It seems likely the US is going to be the next one on that list as they now lean heavily into the answers of the 1950s for the questions of 2050.
Other countries have worked rather well for centuries, including my chosen home, Switzerland.
It's far from perfect. But there is a culture of political engagement and debate from the ground up that has done very well - and has been defended by the population for a long time now.
@greve
Given that Switzerland was the last european country that gave votes to women, I can't state such a long democratic tradition. And now even your chosen home seems eager to change into a surveillance system.
And btw. your first post shows that you apply double standarts: You judge those countries that label themselves "socialistic" by the label and those that label themselves "democratic" by their substance.
@Nike_Leonhard @iwein @ubuntourist That's a very selective definition of democracy you've come up with for yourself.
By that standard, ancient greek democracy would not have been democratic. But still it is widely considered the cradle of democracy.
And FWIW, in Germany, women needed permission from their husbands to work until 1977, and were legally ordered to be subservient to their husbands until the 1950s.
Social and political systems evolve. As they must.
@Nike_Leonhard @iwein @ubuntourist
And yes, Switzerland was fairly late - because the process was handled by bottom up democratic decision not by decree from above.
It is sometimes a slow process, and sometimes tiring. But it leads to bottom up decision making that holds the powerful to account.
@greve
That a minority has a right to elect the leaders doesn't make a system democratic. Women were always half of the people and not only them but slaves also were excluded from civil rights an participation. So of course ancient greece cities weren't democratic. "Demos" means people and if you call a system democratic that denies more than half of it's people civil rights, than you don't understand democracy (or worse: you are a demagogue, but I don't hope so).
Tadonic the Flautulent
Georg Greve
⁂iwein⁂
Nike Leonhard