screwlisp
#language #mastoquestion
When writing the authors' names of The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, being Gregor Kiczales, Jim des Rivières and Daniel G. Bobrow, I shortened Jim des Rivières to Rivières. Is this correct, or am I meant to write Des Rivières?
Jun 15 at 4:24amWeb
Show threadAlfred M. SzmidtJun 15
@screwlisp The later. It is his full name, and the name that he uses. All you save is four bytes, and making it harder to find references.
Show threadscrewlispJun 15
@amszmidt I've also noticed I left out the accent, which I am also fixing in hindsight. Thanks very much.
Show threadAlfred M. SzmidtJun 15
@screwlisp https://www.arbormemorial.ca/en/capital/obituaries/james-des-rivières/33255.html
Show threadAlfred M. SzmidtJun 15
@screwlisp http://ottawa.moths.ca/
Jim des Rivieres Moth Images

High-resolution images of moths collected by photographer Jim des Rivieres in and around Ottawa, Canada.

Show threadVassil Nikolov | Васил НиколовJun 15

> I shortened Jim des Rivieres to Rivieres. Is this correct, or am I meant to write des Rivieres?

I would keep "des" and more importantly I would check what the already established practice for citing this name is in the literature.
That would also include keeping the accent (des Rivières).

#AMOP
#CommonLisp
#MetaobjectProtocol

@screwlisp

Show threadDima Pasechnik 🇺🇦 🇳🇱Jun 15
@vnikolov @screwlisp probably Des, not des, but anyway you definitely need it in the name. Without it, it's akin to Nikol insead of Nikolov 🙂
Show threadVassil Nikolov | Васил НиколовJun 15

> Without ["des"], it's akin to Nikol instead of Nikolov 🙂

👍
Touché.

Of course, actual use is authoritative.
I suppose in this case it is indeed "des Rivières", but note that "van" is usually omitted before "Beethoven" and "von" before "Goethe".

I could elaborate _only on demand_ on the meaning and use of the -ov suffix¹ with a comparison to other similar pre- and post-constructs.
🙂
_________
¹ In three words, produces possessive forms.

@dimpase @screwlisp

Show threadDima Pasechnik 🇺🇦 🇳🇱Jun 15

@vnikolov @screwlisp omitting van/von from van Beethoven etc is, I gather, an old bastardisation.
Noone would omit von from Von Neumann. Or de from De Klerk.

'ov' in Russian or Ukrainian is the same as in Bulgarian, I suppose, so 'I' know.

Show threadVassil Nikolov | Васил НиколовJun 15

> omitting van/von from van Beethoven etc is, I gather, an old bastardisation.

You are probably right.
I can't come up with a more recent example (not quickly enough in any case).

> 'ov' in Russian or Ukrainian is the same as in Bulgarian, I suppose, so 'I' know.

Yes, it is.

@dimpase @screwlisp

Show threadMadMatheMatikerJun 17
@vnikolov @dimpase @screwlisp OT: For the first 33 years of his life, Goethe was actually not „von Goethe“
And Beethoven was apparently upset when he was told in court that „van Beethoven“ was just indicating a place, not aristocracy.
Show threadDima Pasechnik 🇺🇦 🇳🇱Jun 17
@maddemaddigger @vnikolov @screwlisp
van Beethoven is basically a Dutch name (ancestors on his father side came from Brabant) and noble Dutch names would either explicitly mention a title, or begin with 'van der', not just 'van'.
Show threadVassil Nikolov | Васил НиколовJun 17

[Customary omission of "de", "von", etc. when referring to people.]

> OT: For the first 33 years of his life, Goethe was actually not „von Goethe“

Yes.
Similarly Tirpitz was ennobled at the age of 51.

But Bismarck was born von Bismarck.
Saussure was born de Saussure (Ferdinand; linguist and semiotician).

So practice varies rather a lot.

P.S.
This might be useful as a "benchmark" question for artificial intelligence.
I have no guess how it would fare.

@maddemaddigger @dimpase @screwlisp