Roche LimitJun 10

@anelki
Thanks, I appreciate that explanation. But as an anti-facist pro-lgbtq person, do I have to accept that parents cannot let young children have access to the internet unless they are happy for them to stumble across violence, porn and indeed violent porn? I'm talking about for example five-year-olds playing games - ofc parents need to supervise them themselves, but some need opt-in tools like these to help them.

The level of censorship may be too strong for comfort in this EU case, I haven't investigated, and of course censorship has been used to suppress LGBTQ and other minorities, but it is context sensitive. Not all censorship is harmful, and not all internet material is beneficial. A balance is needed, and opt-in tooling seems on the face of it to be reasonable to me.
@dalias @gcluley @el

Show threadCassandrichJun 10
@rochelimit @anelki @gcluley @el Your fears are about something that *does not happen*. The narratives that they do ("Elsagate"? lol) are manufactured bs from the usual anti-LGBTQ lobbyist bad actors. Young children do not "stumble across" violent porn. If you want that shit you have to actually do some significant work seeking it out. Same principle as "drugs in the halloween candy".
Show threadRoche LimitJun 10
@dalias
I've worked with school children that have done exactly that - a shared link from another kid, and then lots of boys end up expecting violent sex with their girlfriends. I really don't know of a solution that is safe for everyone, and I do know that what you say is absolutely true. But how to balance the risks? I really do not know, but I see big risks whatever is decided.
Thanks for taking the time to respond - I appreciate the civility with such a fraught topic. My first post was rather abrupt and unthoughtful.
@anelki @gcluley @el
Show threadCassandrich
@rochelimit @anelki @gcluley @el Those are not "young children". And you solve that problem with comprehensive age-appropriate sex ed starting from an early age, so they know how cringe that stuff (and the people sharing it) are when they first see it, rather than it being their introduction to the idea of sex.
Jun 10 at 3:55pmWeb
Show threadRoche LimitJun 10
@dalias
Agreed. That, unfortunately, is politically very difficult. Sex ed in the UK can be excellent, but too often parents object, encouraged by populist politicians and activists. And unfortunately here parents can opt their kids out of it.
@anelki @gcluley @el
Show threadCassandrichJun 10

@rochelimit @anelki @gcluley @el A big practical part of the solution, short of getting rid of bigots, is deframing as much as possible of the material from being "sex ed".

For example, a lot of it can be framed as interpersonal dynamics, standing up for yourself and others, personal space, respecting and demanding respect from others, etc.

Unfortunately even these things are difficult/controversial in a culture that's traditionally celebrated bullying, abuse, and subjugation of children.

Show threadRoche LimitJun 10
@dalias
Yup. That sort of framing is quite common in tge UK/EU, since schools are largely child centred, albeit within the constraints of local politics. Still, schools here do still operate as sausage factories, with too little space for individualism.
@anelki @gcluley @el
Show threadelJun 10

@rochelimit @dalias @anelki @gcluley

I'm going to make a far reach of a point here; that kind of parenting, schooling, and community-wide erosion of agency in children indoctrinates them, their families, and their communities towards compliance with the mechanics of authoritarian governance.

Just look at the echos of that same infantilization in the treatment the regime here in the US is giving to California while all the reactionary red state governments are cheering it on; the citizens and residents of the state are trying to maintain their boundary (Sanctuary City status of L.A.) the regime are circumventing the state's right to decide consent (legally the fed has to wait for the governor's permission) "for their own good" and have sent in two types of fatigued military (yes, the cops are their own kind of military but we're ignoring that for the point of this analogy). Meanwhile, the state got sent to bed without dinner recently (FEMA Aid for wildfires withheld out of spite) because it is not compliant enough.

Show threadCassandrichJun 10

@rochelimit @anelki @gcluley @el Then, instead of "ooooh this is the secret of SEX they won't tell us about!" the first time kids see this shit it's:

"Wow, what a loser. He's not even trying to enjoy it just being an abusive jerk. Kinda like that kid who tried to bully my friends because his parents were right-wing shits who taught him to behave like that."

Show threadLisPiJun 10
@dalias @el @gcluley @anelki @rochelimit It's fine to like weird things that are not practical in reality and for which consent cannot be sanely obtained.

It is *not* fine to attempt to apply it in reality. That is the issue those "boys" had. A considerable part of it is a lack of education on consent and reality vs fiction.
Show threadRoche LimitJun 11
@lispi314
Unfortunately, many teen boys in the UK, possibly most, watch Andrew Tate or other 'manosphere' channels, so consent education has less cut through.
Show threadLisPiJun 11
@rochelimit Gross, one would hope they'd have more self-respect than to watch that garbage.