Sips'Plex now will SELL your personal data
Selfhoster1728I don’t know why everyone in the selfhosting community still even mentions Plex or uses it.
It’s closed source, not free; Jellyfin is a no brainer yet people still go to Plex??
Until jellyfin adds better user log in plex will still thrive. I do the self hosting I don’t want a call every few days about they can’t log in. The one click Gmail login with plex is amazing.
MudManThe overhead of the live library upkeep on Jellyfin is also quite insane, at least for me. I'm talking taking the whole thing down for many minutes at a time for every other service trying to run on the same machine bad.
What on earth does this even mean?
I’ve never had to take jf down while managing the library.
It means my last attempt to set up a Jellyfin server on the same machine where Plex is running fine ended up with any changes to my library bringing the entire thing to a grinding halt while Jellyfin tried to parse my media library again.
It may have gotten better over time, but a quick search showed me I wasn't alone in seeing that happen and I was already checked out due to all the other annoyances at that point, so I didn't keep it running longer to see if it went back to semi-acceptable levels later.
It may have been a bug or a config issue, but the point is it absolutely happened to me.
It may have been a bug or a config issue, but the point is it absolutely happened to me
That’s absolutely a config issue.
OK, so why can I mess up a config so that the whole thing grinds to a halt?
Plus, I'm not so sure. A bunch of the people I saw mentioning the same thing did so on bug reports that seemed unattended. It's not like I had a byzantine deployment, all the thing was doing was parse library files held in a given location. I installed the software, pointed it to a location and all I ever touched afterwards were the files on the library folders.
I will opt out of a LOT of things on Plex before I troubleshoot that situation, I can tell you that.
so why can I mess up a config so that the whole thing grinds to a halt?
I actually can’t tell if this is facetious or serious. There are a couple hundred (if not thousand) configuration options or reasons why your chosen setup might have caused the problem you’re describing - it isn’t really up to the developer to anticipate how every individual user has configured their home server, with every other application that might be sharing the same environment. It might have even been the plex service that was causing the issue.
I ran jellyfin and plex on the same library and machine for probably a year before migrating completely away from plex without any issues, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t have to read a bit of the documentation to get the config right.
I will opt out of a LOT of things on Plex before I troubleshoot that situation, I can tell you that.
Fair enough, managing your own home server isn’t for everyone.
it isn't really up to the developer to anticipate how every individual user has configured their home server,
Yes, it is.
People keep answering the question of "why would anybody still use Plex" in this thread much better than I ever could.
Also, "it works on my machine" doesn't mean it's not a bug or a legitimate performance issue inherent to the software. It's always crazy to me how holier-than-thou, not-the-developer's-job people can get without heeding even the most basic, ground-level software development principles.
Also, also, spare me the condescension, I self-host a dozen different things, including other open source libraries for non-video stuff, closed source libraries for other other non-video stuff and increasingly more-trouble-than-it's-worth networking.
But even if I didn't, Plex was one of the first things I hosted because all you have to do is installing like you would any local application and it just works. By the time it's living in a contianer inside a dedicated home server or whatever you are well past the entry level for this stuff. If that's the gap you find acceptable between Plex and Jellyfin you have, again, found your answer to why a whole bunch of people would consider one and not the other.
I just don't think you need to make your whole personality about your pet home server or that it needs to be finicky and annoying to work. Self hosting has tons of potential and it's one of the few areas where open source solutions dominate the field. Somebody should take some time to make it actually accessible before the commercial hounds smell blood in the enshittified waters and turn it into a product all the way.
Kudos to Home Assistant for soooort of doing that, although I still think it's a bit overcustomizable and overengineered. Still the closest to a good self-hosted open application out there by a mile, though.
Also, “it works on my machine” doesn’t mean it’s not a bug or a legitimate performance issue inherent to the software
Of course not, but when there’s an issue that’s limited to certain users, the immediate question is “what is different about this installation that’s causing this issue here and not elsewhere?”. It would have been just as easy for you to start with Jellyfin instead of plex, but then you would have likely run into the same issue when trying to add plex to the same shared media volume. That isn’t an uncommon issue, but when you’ve already said ‘it’s not worth my time to troubleshoot this application’, I can only assume you also didn’t have the time to read the documentation. That’s fine - most of us here understand that homelabs are a niche hobby interest and not everyone is willing to maintain a server that requires technical knowledge and time to keep running smoothly. Some people just want something that works out of the box and don’t care about it being open sourced or customizable, and that’s fair. If that’s why you prefer plex that’s fine. But it isn’t the developer’s fault if you choose to go down a more complicated deployment path and find that you’re out of your depth.
It’s always crazy to me how holier-than-thou, not-the-developer’s-job people can get without heeding even the most basic, ground-level software development principles.
Containerized applications are simply not designed to work like native applications - they are very much built with the assumption that those people who are deploying them have - at a minimum - a cursory knowledge of VM’s and shared volume ACL’s and a willingness to troubleshoot their configuration if there are conflicts. It isn’t because they’re shirking responsibility as developers, it’s because they’re providing source code that’s designed for remote service developers to plug into other services/environments and customized. If you can’t be bothered to do basic troubleshooting that’s very common with shared volume deployments, then maybe you’ve reached your personal threshold for how much self-hosting you’re willing to do. Again, that’s not ‘holier-than-thou’, that’s just an acknowledgment of what remote application deployment requires.
Plex and jellyfin can be run together if you really wanted to do it, but if you can’t be bothered to do basic troubleshooting then I won’t be bothered to soothe your ego.
I just don’t think you need to make your whole personality about your pet home server or that it needs to be finicky and annoying to work
Lmao, idk what to tell you bud. Some people actually enjoy working on their cars, but I don’t hear you getting mad at them because all you’re willing to do yourself is change your oil.
You are actually wrong about that first assumption, I did try both at the same time and the problems with Jellyfin moved me over to Plex. Plex never had an issue handling my remote library at any point, and in fact ran just as well in a container in the NAS holding the files as it did natively on both Windows and Linux, so it was surprisingly easy to see what combination of placing files and software worked better for me.
Which I guess is a good segueway to your second point, because hey, turns out there are plenty of applications that are pretty agnostic about running inside of a container or not, Plex included. And there are several implementations of easy self-hosted apps that will set up a container for you. Unfortunately most of those are commercial software trying to monetize self-hosting, and snobbish hobbyists seem to have no particular urgency to beating corporations to that particular punch.
And yes, you can run Plex and Jellyfin together. I don't know what that point is supposed to add to this. You can mostly run any software alongisde any other software. Frankly, the biggest issue of doing that, besides how redundant it is, is that Jellyfin will insist on writing a whole bunch of garbage all over your library if you want to set it up its way. Plex will mostly tolerate this and keep chugging along, though, so it's not a dealbreaker if you don't mind.
And absolutely you can make a hobby out of self-hosting or whatever else, but the point is car nuts typically don't hold the opinion that nobody should be having cars but them. I mean, there's plenty of car snobbery, and a bunch of people will say they prefer a manual transmission car over an automatic, but it's a pretty extreme position to hear someone say if you can't drive stick you shouldn't have access to cars. Let alone say that if you didn't build your car yourself you aren't skilled enough to have one, which is the actually equivalence here.
You are actually wrong about that first assumption, I did try both at the same time and the problems with Jellyfin moved me over to Plex.
I inferred it from this:
Plex was one of the first things I hosted because all you have to do is installing like you would any local application and it just works
And anyway, plex and jellyfin have different media library configuration requirements. Even if you did them at the same time, you’d have to be kind of lucky to have configured them both on the same media volume correctly without reading any of the documentation or having experience with docker ACL rules.
Just as a for-instance (since I don’t see any specifics), sharing a media volume across separated docker containers on linux requires mapping the same users and usergroups to each container. It’s assumed you should know this, if you’re deploying a stack of services on a server, because containers are designed to be isolated and secure - containers are restricted to accessing files in their approved ACL, so that a bad actor can’t get access to a separate volume from a compromised service. One possible problem you were having (again, just a guess) is that jellyfin was assigning itself ownership of the files/folders on the media volume every time it did its scan, and Plex no longer had permission to access them. It actually doesn’t matter which service was there first - as soon as you had two services accessing the same volume you would have run into this issue. It depends on how you configured both services, and if you gave them privileged access or mapped users properly, ect.
and in fact ran just as well in a container in the NAS holding the files as it did natively on both Windows and Linux
If you’re running both services on a store-bought NAS, the problem could have also been a misunderstanding about the combined overhead requirement for the services. Without making any assumptions about how much thought you put into your configuration, I’d check that as a part of troubleshooting. But, again, seems like you don’t give a fuck about troubleshooting your customized service stack and would rather use a ready-made product. That’s fine.
turns out there are plenty of applications that are pretty agnostic about running inside of a container or not, Plex included.
Jellyfin included also. I’m not sure what the point you’re making though.
Frankly, the biggest issue of doing that, besides how redundant it is, is that Jellyfin will insist on writing a whole bunch of garbage all over your library if you want to set it up its way.
I agree it’s redundant, which is why I personally only deploy jellyfin now. As far as jellyfin writing to your media drive… Yea, I guess that is a difference between the services. This isn’t really a problem if you configure your containers correctly, but if you don’t want to mess with that stuff I can see why it might be an issue for you. Plex may be storing those files on its container volume instead of the mounted media volume, or it could be storing them on their remote server (it’s been a while since I had plex running), which is a fine way to do it too. There are advantages to writing it to the media volume, but I won’t bore you with that
Let alone say that if you didn’t build your car yourself you aren’t skilled enough to have one, which is the actually equivalence here.
Good thing nobody is telling you not to have a homelab or use selfhosted services. If you want to use Plex and only want to drive automatic transmissions, go for it. Doesn’t change my preference or enthusiasm for jellyfin or manual transmissions, though. And given the opportunity, i’ll still passionately debate the advantages to learning stickshift and open-sourced and customizable self-hosted applications. And if you give them a try and run into problems, i’ll gladly help you try to solve them if you’re willing to engage with it - but if you’d rather just complain about how much my preference sucks then i’ll have no problem telling you to stick with what you know next time.
Man, you're really itching to talk shop about specifics and complexities and it really isn't about that.
The guy said "why does anybody still consider Plex" about the slightly misleading privacy policy excerpt and a bunch of us pointed out UX and accessibility are reasons. This entire tangent spawns from me claiming I had technical issues on top of the UX stuff and you being super excited to assume it's a skill issue and maybe get to troubleshoot a bit.
Except it wasn't, I'm not particularly interested and the technical issues weren't even the primary reason I moved to something else.
For what it's worth, I barely remember what the setup was when I messed around with Jellyfin because I move things around a bunch and despite this conversation suddenly hinging on it, I didn't think much of it beyond "oh, this sucks, I guess I'll just do Plex instead". It was almost certainly not Plex and Jellyfin running simultaneously on two containers sharing resources, though. I have way too many loose computers bouncing around the house for this not to have been some test run natively installing it on whatever I had lying around, which is also why the Plex server I have now has been on three different machines since then (and is still running natively because why the hell not, being adamant that everything needs to be on some overdone docker setup is just nerds being nerds).
Look, I respect your hobbies, but I reserve the right to find you extremely annoying when you try to patronize people who are actually trying to get shit done just because you're excited at the opportunity to exlpain the difference between a bind and a volume at someone whether they need the explanation or not. The reality of it is if you want to be nerdy and all hobbyist about having a home server (I fully reject the term "lab") that rabbit hole goes deep. You have tons of runway to go nuts about dedicated server hardware and networking software while letting people who just kinda want to be able to open their media without having to plug in a physical drive do their thing.
Jellyfin doesn't HAVE to be complicated. It's not good that it is. All this tier of software that does useful stuff to replace corporate subscription crap doesn't need to be any harder to use and maintain than your average Windows application. Everybody would benefit from a concerted effort to take the faff out of it. And I pinky promise that you'll still have a lifelong hobby if and when that happens.
You’re free to find me annoying, I wouldn’t try to deny that anyway.
You pointed to a ‘technical issue’, and i’ve been pretty upfront about why that isn’t necessarily a problem with the software and more likely a user error. You’re free to not use jellyfin for whatever reason you want but I don’t think it’s accurate to portray that as an issue with the software. Sorry if you disagree.
I haven’t seen any issues with UX design personally, and honestly I haven’t seen anyone making a detailed case here about it, but if all you need is “to be able to open your media without having to plug in a physical drive do your thing” I don’t see anything wrong with jellyfin. Maybe if you really really like your google SSO and can’t figure out how to implement that yourself, great. Use plex, go nuts.
I'm very confused about why you'd assume user error is more likely, given the setup.
But to your other question, if it WAS user error, then it's Jellyfin's fault. Why should it be possible for the user to erroneously set the software so that scanning a library would grind the whole thing to a halt? I mean, it wasn't user error, but in what world is allowing the user to set up a simple library scrape in a way that breaks the functionality of the entire thing an acceptable implementation? A bug I can understand, but that's just bad.
Also just bad, from my recollection, Jellyfin's interface to add live TV channels, its overcustomizable tools for skinning (which are needed because the base skin is pretty plain), the convoluted requirements for remote access, the overly strict library parsing paired with the default choice being to keep data stored within the library (for portability, I suppose? It's ugly and annoying and messy). I briefly tried to get books working on it before giving up and that also sucked, but it was a while ago and I forget the details.
You can get as condescending as you want, but those are all major UX blockers for key use cases. Google's SSO is the least of it, but I guess it's an easy deflection if you don't want to acknowledge any usability gaps at all despite all evidence.
And don't get me wrong, I get that Jellyfin is free software and Plex will charge you and advertisers at any opportunity because it is not. But ultimately I use the software that works. I may prefer a free alternative, because who doesn't, but that's not a get out of jail free card. Particularly when the choice isn't just for myself.
Why should it be possible for the user to erroneously set the software so that scanning a library would grind the whole thing to a halt?
I've been vague about the details because you are digging your heels into an argument about a one week test run I did a while ago on a piece of software that didn't do what I wanted. "My use case" was "go in there and scrape my video library" on a default install.
The reason I even tried to plug in live IPTV, by the way, is that people made a big deal of Plex's obsession pushing for it, since they plug it in by default and have their own default list of channels pre-baked. Even if I don't use it much on Plex, and I really don't, it was an interesting test case for how the two pieces of software handle their extra options. For all the crap Plex got for trying to become Netflix, and I do agree it's a fool's errand, it was a depressing reminder of how commercial software and OSS often handle UX differently.
Oh, and if the implication is that Jellyfin got itself a better default skin, then good for them, but I saw the interface not that long ago and it still looked pretty grim. And yeah, screw them for letting me customize it. That's bad. Entirely reskinning software is a bad feature that adds next to nothing but complexity if you have good designers make a good UI in the first place. It's fine to have as an extra, but it should either be very well packaged or waaaay out of the way for power users. The average user shouldn't have to think about it. Turning on dark mode, maybe, and even that would be a disappointing omission of a "take system setting" option as a default. UX IS important.
And no, I refuse to concede that self-hosting entails annoying, convoluted setups. There are multiple commercial solutions to this that are different degrees of "better than nothing". At ground level plenty of routers or self-hosted products will one-click set up a VPN for you, which is not great but at least works around the issue. On the other end it's a remote service provider managing your remote access and then yeah, there's data form you leaking elsewhere, but that as an option is at least useful. It's not just pure corpo closed source like Plex, either. Home Assistant's for-profit arm will gladly take your subscription money and handle remote access for you. Whether you trust them more or less than Google (or not at all and want to set up yourself) is up to you.
Also, again, I checked this a while ago, but given how many other people are up and down this thread claiming (and not being disputed) that Jellyfin is still less fire-and-forget for parsing, I don't know how "outdated" that is. You should ping the two separate people who recommended third party software to scrub media libraries so they'd work with Kodi/Jellyfin that this is now entirely unnecessary.
And I didn't say that ebooks were "a basic UX block" (although it sucking did make me go for a Plex/Komga setup, not a Plex/Jellyfin setup, so... I guess it is on that front). I gave you a list. I'm not going back to Jellyfin just to verify that you're obviously wrong about it all having been perfectly fixed up to Plex's standards, because I'm pretty sure the bunch of people saying the opposite all over this thread aren't making it up.
UX matters. Jellyfin's UX is much, much worse than Plex's. I wish it wasn't, but it was bad enough when I tried it to push me away and a whole bunch of people here are claiming the same thing. Being delusional about the quality of implementation doesn't make it better.
a one week test run I did a while ago on a piece of software that didn’t do what I wanted.
Ok, well then why the fuck are you insisting that it’s evidence of poor software design? Are you really bitching about it slugging your system without even looking at what the default settings were, let alone looking to see if they were appropriate for your setup? Like jesus christ, you can’t even play a typical PC game without tweeking your video settings these days, and yet somehow a self-hosted open-source app is supposed to just guess what your setup is?
I’m not going back to Jellyfin just to verify that you’re obviously wrong about it all having been perfectly fixed up to Plex’s standards
Why do you think I didn't look at what the default settings were? I mean, I told you a bunch of times I went as far as getting into bug reports mentioning similar symptoms, you think I just didn't click the checkmark for "don't turn your computer into a doorstop"?
I didn't change any defaults I didn't need to and I didn't have a complicated task for it (and let's be honest, if I did you'd be here telling me that it's user error for trying to make it do complicated things). That doesn't mean I didn't set it up.
But yes, absolutely, a self-hosted open source app is supposed to guess what my setup is. At least as much as its paid competitor. Because that's my entire point, UX matters and being open source is no excuse for your UX sucking, people are just going to use whatever works best. All the well intentioned whining about security and independence in the world won't beat UX. So if you want more OSS get OSS devs to focus on usability.
But hey, I do appreciate the honesty of admitting this defense of Jellyfin's UX is not about Jellyfin's UX being as good as Plex's, it's an ideological argument independent from UX.
Which is fine, I share your goals. I want Jellyfin to be bigger than Plex.
But for that it needs to be as good as Plex. Or better. And it isn't.
Lmao, just fuck off. I don’t have time to be your therapist.
I am glad you don't. Not that I'd pay you for therapy. I mean, no offense, but your bedside manner is terrible, you've lost your shit multiple times and you keep trying to pass double bind crap as reasonable arguments in decidedly toxic ways. You're a 5/10 opinionated online interlocutor, but a 3/10 therapist at best.
MentalEdgeHuh? Like just sitting there?
Or is it running a heavy background task like trickplay generation? You can disable trickplay (scrobbling previews) if your system isn’t beefy enough to keep up with them.
I run video game servers on my system, and while stream transcodes used to interfere with them, even that was fixed my assigning JF and the games to run on separate CPU cores.
I have. No clue what you mean with having to take it down. But with the *narr stack and jellyseer i basically have no library upkeep. Except for one or two difficult shows
I don’t share videos with people using google to log into any site.
The whole anti Google holier than thou is annoying at these levels.
Ok fine, don’t use Google. But telling your friends and loved ones to switch email providers over your crusade is worse than vegans telling you about their diet.
I’m all for kicking Google to the curb. I’m not for shoving my beliefs down other people’s throats.
It’s not “shoving my beliefs down other people’s throats” telling them that these are the options for signing in the service I’m hosting
Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?
dezmdNo ma’am, this is a Wendys drive thru.
I don't know that Google gets to log your access in that scenario, Plex is just using their login system.
Plex sure does know, though, whether you log in via Google or not, so "I don't share videos using google to log in" is still a bit of a weird statement and not the reason you'd be worried about your piracy habits.
Incidentally, if a friend or family member is hosting a service and "tells me these are the options to sign in to the service I'm hosting" I'd tell them to go away, which is something my own relatives have done to me a bunch when my proposed self-hosted alternative isn't perfectly smooth and just as convenient as the corpo alternative.
Not surprisingly, the only two selfhosted things my family has ever used are Plex and Home Assistant.
I don’t know that Google gets to log your access in that scenario, Plex is just using their login system.
What
Come on, you’ve got a password manager that saves passwords and usernames. It couldn’t be more convenient to login.
Why would you give the responsibility to google for your logins?
Why would you lock yourself into the vendor google by using their login system for every other service? You can’t migrate anywhere easily.
I have a password manager.
My parents do not.
They do have a Gmail account and know how to use Netflix, so they know how to use Plex.
I mean, that's not the dealbreaker, there are plenty of bigger issues with Jellyfin than not having a Google authentication integration. They definitely can log in with a password and do for other self-hosted devices, but the fact is that Plex having the option does remove one annoyance from the process.
I don’t know that Google gets to log your access in that scenario, Plex is just using their login system
Huh? Google would, at a minimum, know what service is requesting authentication, and plex would know which google user account is being used to authenticate. Maybe they hash that information, but why would anyone trust that? Even if you’re not breaking any laws with what you’re hosting on your plex account, I totally understand why someone might not like the idea of google or plex having data about the identities of users accessing your server and what services are being run from it.
Yeah, you kinda got to the breakdown in this conversation. Google sure knows that you're using Plex.
That is not a concern, though. Plex is a perfectly legal piece of software.
I think people are taking me saying "Google doesn't know what you're streaming with Plex, but Plex does, so that'd be a bigger issue" as irrelevant because they assume Plex is itself a liability, which it isn't.
It's weird how corporate copyright assumptions have seeped to the mainstream and people assume that anything you do with your owned media is illegal unless you're paying somebody.
That is not a concern, though. Plex is a perfectly legal piece of software.
There are a bunch of reasons why it might be a concern, and only the least of them has to do with the legality of copyright use.
they assume Plex is itself a liability, which it isn’t.
Except plex has already proven themselves willing to ban users based on their use and streaming practices, so it clearly is a liability
It’s weird how corporate copyright assumptions have seeped to the mainstream and people assume that anything you do with your owned media is illegal unless you’re paying somebody.
If you live inside the US (or a state with trade agreements with the US) and are ripping physical media to store on your server and stream digitally, you are absolutely breaking the law. Doubly so if you are sharing that media with others outside your household.
‘It’s not a problem because I have nothing to hide’ <- you are here.
Well, if you have an issue with people knowing you use Plex at all, then... tough luck, because I hate to tell you this, but a media server needs a server client and it's a vanishingly small group of people that will use either Plex or Jellyfin clients and not let Apple, Google, LG, Samsung or whatever other device is running the client software that this is happening.
I give zero craps about whether Google knows I or anybody else uses Plex via their login because they already know this form the Google Play Store, along with the manufacturer of every TV we collectively own.
And for the record I do not live in the US and the way their absolutely idiotic copyright loopholes apply here is very much in question. It doesn't get tested in court much because the times it has been it didn't go particularly great for copyright holders. Private copying owned media is a right regulated by law here and I will continue to do so. If a corporation wants to deliberate with our local courts whether my owning a drive that happens to not be super picky about on-disc DRM I don't have anything particularly intense going on this week.
Ironically, in our own legal implementation we are allowed to back up movies but there is a carved exception for software, so making a copy of a game you own is a bigger deal. Go figure.
Well, if you have an issue with people knowing you use Plex at all, then… tough luck, because I hate to tell you this, but a media server needs a client and it’s a vanishingly small group of people that will use either Plex or Jellyfin clients and not let Apple, Google, LG, Samsung or whatever other device is running the client software that this is happening.
First:
- not if you install these applications through fdroid or install from source
- not if you block dns queries that report to those servers
- not if you access the service via webURL
but also, it’s not just that they know you use plex or jellyfin, it’s that they know which plex server you use and from what devices you stream from. If, for example, plex decides they want to limit the number of households can stream from a single server (like they’ve already done), all they’d have to do is lock or limit people’s google SSO to that server. They could also report which users are associated with servers engaged in illegal activity when requested, or they could region lock their services or specific media IP’s by request from copyright holders… There’s a ton of abuses that are made possible by even that tiny bit of information they share/collect.
You might not care about it, but a lot of us do. Nobody is trying to convince you to stop using Plex, we’re just trying to explain why we really do not want to use it ourselves
And for the record I do not live in the US and the way their absolutely idiotic copyright loopholes apply here is very much in question. It doesn’t get tested in court much because the times it has been it didn’t go particularly great for copyright holders. Private copying owned media is a right regulated by law here and I will continue to do so.
I have no idea where you live, but plex is an american company. Plex will 100% be forced to comply with copyright takedown requests, and could absolutely penalize you for infringing on american copyright law. Could you be arrested? Maybe not. But there are still a ton of ways you could get fucked because Plex has enshittified their service and has made zero commitments to protecting you or your identity.
we are allowed to back up movies
small thing, but in the US this is technically allowed, but as soon as you format-shift the media (e.g. rip a dvd into a digital format) it is no longer protected. It’s assumed that ‘backing up movies’ is literally ‘duplicate the media in exactly the same format it was originally purchased in’. On top of that, it’s also doubly illegal to then share that media, even as a direct stream via a home server. Idk where you live but I’m actually am not aware of any country who allows for your stated use (unless you’re somewhere without extradition or trade relations with the US like Russia or Cuba, because they don’t give a fuck about US legal claims). Not that it’s commonly prosecuted even in the US, but US companies routinely get takedown requests for that shit and Plex will absolutely throw you under the bus.
You might not care about it, but a lot of us do. Nobody is trying to convince you to stop using Plex, we're just trying to explain why we really do not want to use it ourselves
No you are not. This thread straight up opens on "why would anybody use Plex" and this whole branch is about how people don't want anybody using Google for login.
You are presenting a lot of great hypotheticals and I'll be happy to stop using Plex if and when they stop being hypotheticals. They are, though, so I don't particularly mind.
Especially because we've moved from "oh, maybe get your family to not use Google to log in" to "actually, get them to move to F-droid or install from source and do so under proper DNS filtering to stop telemetry gathering".
Friend, if people's relatives were willing to install their Plex client from source they wouldn't need anybody to host a Plex server for them. What the hell are you going on about and how detached are you from how people use software?
I swear, online... man, "posers" is so harsh, but I can't find a better word always pretend they are running some top secret off-the-grid operation like big corpo is coming after them specifically. Your data is probably not that tightly kept (mostly because a bunch of it probably doesn't depend on you) and it's not that much of a priority.
Oh, and while I get that you get a kick of repeating what your understanding of US law is at me, over here backing up to additional media is explicitly supported by the right to private copy. As is, implicitly breaking DRM.
Not that it matters because nobody is enforcing these at individuals for private use anyway because the rules being sought are absurd and holders know it and they just want scary tools to wave in front of individual users and to actually deploy against major sharers. You are playing out this weird scenario where a company goes to Plex to get your name as if Plex doesn't have a business built on helping you do the thing you think they're chasing you for and has a ton more money they could be sued for. It's nonsense. The reality of it is it makes you feel cool and savvy to secure your home computer as if it held state secrets.
And that's fine, but don't act like anything else is insanity. It's kind of obnoxious.
You are presenting a lot of great hypotheticals and I’ll be happy to stop using Plex if and when they stop being hypotheticals.
it’s not hypothetical, Plex has already been banning users for various reasons, all of which stem from them having access to data about your account, connected users, and server data.
Especially because we’ve moved from “oh, maybe get your family to not use Google to log in” to “actually, get them to move to F-droid or install from source and do so under proper DNS filtering to stop telemetry gathering”.
- someone suggested they didn’t trust google SSO
- you said 'why does that matter, they don’t collect much info from it’
- I pointed out that it’s still a big deal because of the potential abuses it enables
- you said 'why should you care, they’ll know you use it from downloading the client app’
- I pointed out that there are ways to use it without them necessarily knowing, and…
- anyway the real risk is associating your identity with a specific host server, not that you have plex on your phone or tv
You’re the only one making this complicated bud.
Oh, and while I get that you get a kick of repeating what your understanding of US law is at me, over here backing up to additional media is explicitly supported by the right to private copy. As is, implicitly breaking DRM.
I was simply telling you that the US has a similar carve out for breaking DRM, but that it didn’t include the use case you are describing. Just giving you a heads-up that it’s a common misconception here, and it could be misunderstood wherever you are too. Chill out. BUT, even if it IS legal where you are, Plex is bound to US law and can and will ban you for breaking it.
Not that it matters because nobody is enforcing these at individuals for private use anyway
Except Plex is enforcing it because it is excplicitly against their terms of service, and have already done so.
but don’t act like anything else is insanity. It’s kind of obnoxious.
I’m not saying it’s insanity you dipshit, i’m saying there are good and valid reasons to avoid a cloud-hosted service not within your control. You’re free to disagree but fuck off with this incredulousness
No, the bans stem from the EULA. I am not breaching the EULA. Whether Plex can verify that or not is not much of a concern for me.
But to be clear, I have zero to lose here. The outcome of Plex banning me for not breaking their EULA (for some reason, which is technically possible but unlikely) is the exact same as the outcome of me stopping to use Plex in case they ban me. In both cases the only thing that happens is I'm not using Plex anymore.
Also, in your hypothetical Plex already knows the stuff you are worried about. The SSO has nothing to do with it. Plex doesn't need data from Google to know, they already have your personal information.
I guess adding to the list of reasons to use Plex "being berated by online randos wanting to be performatively tech savvy". Which, again, changes nothing practical, but hey.
No, the bans stem from the EULA.
spoiler>This TOS will take effect (or re-take effect) at the (and each) time you begin installing, accessing, or using the Plex Solution, WHICHEVER IS EARLIEST, and is effective until terminated as set forth below. Plex reserves the right to terminate this TOS at any time on reasonable grounds, which shall specifically include, without limitation, discontinuation of the Plex Solution (or related services) as an offering of the Plex business, nonpayment, termination of account, fraudulent or unlawful activity, or actions or omissions that violate this TOS, subject to the survival rights of certain provisions identified below. In addition, Plex shall have the right to take appropriate administrative and/or legal action in the event of breach or (alleged) criminal activity, including alerting legal authorities, as it deems necessary in its sole discretion.
> When using the Plex Solution in accordance with the foregoing license, you shall not directly or indirectly (a) use the Plex Solution to create any service, software or documentation that performs substantially the same functionality as the Plex Solution, (b) disassemble, decompile, reverse-engineer, or use any other means to attempt to discover any source code, algorithms, trade secrets, or applications underlying the Plex Solution or any of its tools, content, or features, © encumber, sublicense, transfer, distribute, rent, lease, time-share, or use the Plex Solution in any service bureau arrangement or otherwise for the benefit of any third party, (d) adapt, combine, create derivative works of, or otherwise modify the Plex Solution, (e) disable, circumvent, or otherwise avoid or undermine any security device, mechanism, protocol, or procedure implemented in the Plex Solution, (f) use or access the Plex Solution for any unlawful, fraudulent, deceptive, tortious, malicious, or otherwise harmful or injurious purpose, (g) remove, obscure, deface, or alter any proprietary rights notices on any element of the Plex Solution or accompanying documentation, or (h) use the Plex Solution in any manner which could damage, disable, overburden, or impair the Plex Solution or interfere with any third party’s authorized use of the Plex Solution.
But maybe you don’t care about any of that shit, either? Idk man the list of things you’re dismissing as unimportant is really adding up.
Plex already knows the stuff you are worried about. The SSO has nothing to do with it. Plex doesn’t need data from Google to know, they already have your personal information.
Jellyfin has zero idea who I am or what accounts/IPs access my server, nor do they know what’s a part of my media catalogue or if they are legally licensed to me. If I were to use google’s SSO, then google would know which accounts/IP’s are accessing my server, which isn’t a huge deal by itself, but if jellyfin were to have information about my entire account and library then it would suddenly be a very big issue.
But Plex does know what’s on your account, and they do limit the number of authenticated users of the account as a part of their TOS and through limitations surrounding their paid plex pass, and they have exercised their right to terminate accounts and pass personal information of infringers along to law enforcement and copyright holders. None of which is even a remote possibility with a completely self-hosted solution. But hey, if you’re happy then more power to ya.
You are correct, I don't care about any of that either. And I know about the boilerplate. Bud.
You need to agree with yourself about what you're arguing. Are you saying that the problem is the SSO or Plex?
Because if Plex will go tell on you it will do it based on the data they have internally, not based on any data captured by the login flow, so the SSO is not additional issue compared to using Plex without the Google login and using the email login instead.
And if you're arguing that the SSO is the problem and not Plex which you indignantly reminded me is what the thread was about, then you're arguing against yourself, because it sure seems we agree that if Plex is going to take any action against you illegally sharing files through their system (which, by the way, they are legally obligated to do) it won't be due to the Google login at all, which is just a bit of convenience and doesn't seem to provide anybody with any data they don't already have.
Once again, you are super keen on playing up hypotheticals. Once again, the biggest issue with those hypotheticals is that Plex boots me out... of Plex. I am not doing anything illegal with it or even breaching their EULA, including the paragraphs you quote (not that something being written down in an EULA makes it applicalbe, but still). I will bite that bullet and live with Jellyfin's implementation if and when that happens. Which it likely won't.
Are you saying that the problem is the SSO or Plex?
There’s a problem with SSO’s and there’s a problem with Plex. Go back and read the conversation - that’s not the problem with plex, it’s a problem. Someone said they don’t trust google login, and you were indignant about why that might be, and I was exceedingly patient with explaining why it’s a problem. I like that jellyfin does not provide a google SSO, because I can choose a better, less invasive one as a server admin. I’ve not said anything contradictory here, you’ve just been willfully misreading shit.
Once again, the biggest issue with those hypotheticals is that Plex boots me out… of Plex.
just fucking read the words I so kindly found for you in the TOS (not that it fucking matters if it’s a tos or a eula anyway). It’s also not a fucking hypothetical, Plex has already been exercising this. But I don’t give a fuck if you’re concerned about it, i’m just telling you why so many people are taking issue with it. And given that they’ve already demonstrated that they collect detailed data about your personal library and watching habits, it is certainly not out of the question that they could now sell that data as a part of their new privacy policy.
In addition, Plex shall have the right to take appropriate administrative and/or legal action in the event of breach or (alleged) criminal activity, including alerting legal authorities, as it deems necessary in its sole discretion.
Unless you live in a country without a copyright agreement with the US, you are absolutely liable under this. I have no idea if you do or not, but I’d venture a guess that most people here do. Good for you if it doesn’t apply.
I don’t give a shit what software you use.
I have absolutely not ben willfully misreading. You can't argue that the guy saying he has a problem with Google's sign-in specifically has a point and also say that the data mining happening within Plex is WAY more intrusive. If the point is whether giving Google this data is a problem it must be worse than using any of the other sign-in options. But it isn't. Your data is as widely available one way or the other. It is reasonable to think Plex's visibility over your server is too much, I accept that, particularly if your use case runs afoul of their EULA...
...but then you can't tell me "I don't trust Google", unless your argument is you trust Plex more for some reason. Which you shouldn't. It just doesn't follow.
Oh, and they do sell your data for advertising. There's an opt-in for it, though. Since we're talking about legality, it'd be a punishable offense for them to sell your data without your consent, which is why that's there, and they do need to tell you what data they collect if you request it.
And no, I am not liable under US law. There is a treaty that requires both parties to meet those requirements, but US law isn't directly applicable over here. What is applicable is our own legislation made to comply with those trade agreements. Which includes exemptions for private copy.
As far as I and every piece of legal advice I've seen about this knows, anyway. If you have a source for how apparently US law is directly applicable to any country they have a trade agreement with feel free to point me to this insane new paradigm of international law, though.
You can’t argue that the guy saying he has a problem with Google’s sign-in specifically has a point and also say that the data mining happening within Plex is WAY more intrusive.
Those are not mutually exclusive statements. In fact, mostly it just makes you an idiot for not having a problem with either.
It is worse than an auth method that isn’t maintained by a known data whore like google. It’s substantially worse when you’re using it with another data whore service. For those of us who administrate remote services and care about not being beholden to google’s data addiction, it is absolutely not a good thing to provide it as the default auth method, which is what the OP was saying. Even if jellyfin included it, I would immediately disable it. Especially since, as a server administrator, I have a vested interest in keeping the activity of that server private. Even if the specific details of the media on it aren’t exposed, I don’t want any party with conflicting interests to my own to know what users are associated with my server. Just having a dozen or so users connected through jellyfin to my IP would be enough for a motivated legal entity to look at me, and I have more than just a private media server to worry about. Is it likely to happen? Probably not. But why would I even risk it?
If you have a source for how apparently US law is directly applicable to any country they have a trade agreement with feel free to point me to this insane new paradigm of international law, though.
I don’t have a source for you, but typically using a US-based platform can give US authorities a jurisdictional hook, especially if the rights holders are US-based or can show commercial harm. That is why US based web services are extraordinarily strict with all of their users, even those who live outside the US. I’m not even saying it’s common, just that it could happen. I seem to remember operators of p2p services getting nabbed at customs while traveling back in the day - it wasn’t illegal where they were, but it sure as fuck was in the US and they were extremely interested in putting the kabash on it.
No question that plex is a more convenient service, but if you have the tech literacy to manage something that’s completely private that is only marginally more complicated, why the fuck wouldn’t you? Then again, maybe if you think you’re more tech literate than you are, it doesn’t seem all that simple.
Man, you keep thinking that taking digs about how it's all a skill issue is either an argument or an insult, and I keep reminding you that even if there was a skill issue at play (and there wasn't), being hard or annoying to use is the actual problem. If your UX allows for skill issues in making a straightforward setup run then it's a UX issue.
Also, me using Plex to host copies of my own software legally is not the same as operating a P2P service. But if it's any consolation I have no intention to set foot on that hellhole anyway, given that US authorities seem to not need copyright overreach to throw you in a room with no windows indefinitely these days. Good luck with that.
Oh, and yes, those are mutually exclusive. Or mutually inclusive, to be more accurate. If your concern is the govenrment overreach implications of having a portion of your data leaked, worrying about a smaller leak along the way of actively generating a larger leak is entirely pointless. Conversely, I'd argue that if you have a dozen users and are terrified that the cops are going to come and raid the... I'm gonna say meth lab you're running on the side, we're back to the conversation about how cool you are with that dozen users having their Jellyfin clients running on a bunch of Android devices, Smart TVs, Windows boxes or whatever else.
Again, I keep struggling with the irony of this weird position having entirely bought into the narrative that self-hosting media is inherently illegal or dangerous. I came into this argument from the UX angle, you guys are increasingly convincing me that a significant disincentive for self-hosting to become mainstream is that its entire community is convinced that they are doing something wrong, apparently. It's not that I hadn't noticed how central to the whole thing a bunch of P2P-specific paraphernalia happens to be, but I wasn't ready for the gatekeeping to come with a side of edgy 90s we're-so-bad hack-the-world stuff.
Damn, I was with you until the unnecessary vegan bashing.
marighostAgreed. I have a dozen or so people using my Plex. There is no conceivable way I’m going to get my less tech literate friends and family to use jellyfin, much less am I going to find a way to set it up for remote access with my limited knowledge. Plex is just too convenient right now.
All of my less tech literate friends are getting a warning to abandon their computers entirely.
So you don’t do a lot of tech support. Nice.
ITT: bunch of nerds with literally no friends or family to share media with lol
Ok but there are a million SSO options out there - just because someone doesn’t want to allow google as a SSO provider doesn’t mean they’re telling anyone they have to switch fucking email services.
If you want a remote service to handle your authentication you don’t have to use google. I feel like that’s something I shouldn’t have to point out in a self-hosting community on an open-source and federated social media platform.
Ulrichtelling your friends and loved ones to switch email providers over your crusade
It has nothing to do with email
It’s not a personal crusade. Everyone should be trying to get people away from Google. They are an absolutely fucked corporation who makes a fortune spying on you and everyone you know.
ITT: bunch of nerds with literally no friends or family to share media with lol
originaluciferi dont get this.. im technically still usin emby, but user management is beyond simple and requirs no upkeep. no one has asked me to reset their passwords and ive got a few dozen people usin my instance.
Not forgetting Emby allows either a local or a federated account!
Sounds more of an user problem than a jellyfin problem? If they can’t remember their login I’ll just not add them to jellyfin.
And this is why people use Plex.
I mean, all joking aside, I wish FOSS alternatives paid enough attention to UX and didn't unironically run on this sort of mentality, because I do want good open source alternatives I can use without getting annoyed or having the other people I'm trying to give access telling me that they're actually just gonna use the other thing if you don't mind.
Exactly, we dont add them to jellyfin, we add them to plex because its easier for them lol.
Fair enough, i just have very limited patience for incompetence. if they cant figure out how to remember their user and password. I don’t want to have to deal with them at all.