Justine Smithies
Playing around with #Labwc and it's really quite nice. I could get used to a stacking #Wayland compositor and the best bit is it can window snap to the edges too. So it's okay for basic tiling like most. I have built labwc myself from their repo though just to get the latest updates.
#FreeBSD
May 22 at 6:07pmWeb
Show threadKaiXinMay 22
@justine@snac.smithies.me.uk #openbox has always been my first choice when I just want a WM instead of DE. And #labwc really makes me feel at home
Show threadStevanMay 22
@justine Judging by the wallpaper, your week gardening and doing household stuff is going well, Justine.
<DUCKS_AND_RUNS>
😃
Show threadJustine SmithiesMay 22
Hey we have painted front and back and half the side as we're a terrace. But owing to having two sheds at the side of the house the angle is too steep for the three section ladder. But fear not as I'm going to hire a 3 foot wide scissor lift to help me with the last top piece. Useful as I've to grind off the old TV antenna and sky bracket that rotted away. My Freesat dish is now in a reachable location. Safety first you know. ;)
Show threadStevanMay 22
@justine Oh well, if it means hiring some toys I take back the nasturtium I was throwing.
Show threadJustine SmithiesMay 22
Also who said I can't code up a ladder with a paint brush in one hand ? 😂

CC: @withaveeay@mastodon.scot
Show threadStevanMay 22
@justine 😂
Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 23
@justine
Very nice background, but what a those options that were not yet available? I've been using xfce for years and the transparency and snapping has always been there.
I read about Wayland and several apps having problems with it. What is the big plus of Wayland?
Show threadJustine SmithiesMay 23
I've been daily drive Wayland for about 5 years now in various window managers and I've had no issues. It's just a matter of learning who it works and there are plenty of replacement apps that do the same as your old ones from X. Also I think that you can run the latest xfce with labwc to get the Wayland experience.
Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 23
@justine I installed Wayland during a new laptop installation earlier this year because it was newer, but then some apps behaved erratically so reinstalled everything using X. I still don't understand what Wayland has to offer more than X. I like new things, but, I want to see why I need to switch. What's the gain?
Show threadHannes DeekenMay 23

@jerry1970 @justine

Security, for one thing. With X, every app can read all your keystrokes, for example.

Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 23
@justine @Glenlivet Aha that is interesting, I didn't know that.
Show threadCroc in a Froc (SuperGaytor)May 23

@jerry1970 @justine X is in maintenance mode and has been for years now, and most of the work being done is in aid of the xwayland compatibility layer. It's a very old codebase that's become difficult to work with and has structural security flaws (e.g. every application running in an x server can be a silent keylogger). Development has been focused on Wayland and the xwayland compatibility layer for some time, even RHEL 10 has officially dropped X11, it's not even available in the official repos.

Wayland is reaching an inflection point where most of it's usability issues (usually stemming from it's focus on security), have been solved with protocols and portals, and Wayland compositors and applications are adopting these features.

Over time depending on how much community support there is for the X server it will fall victim to bitrot and become increasingly broken on modern systems. Eventually popular toolkits and applications will cease to function anyway or require hacky workaround compatibility layers.

Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 23
@justine @SuperGaytor OK, that would be a good reason to move to Wayland of course. Hm, on my next laptop then I guess...
Show threadCroc in a Froc (SuperGaytor)May 23

@jerry1970 @justine what compositor/WM/DE did you try? GNOME and KDE have by far the most mature Wayland experience, with hyprland and sway being the most mature standalone WMs (this is assuming Linux, no idea what Wayland is like in BSD land)

Hopefully soon we'll see more choice for mature wayland compositors!

Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 23
@justine @SuperGaytor I don't know if compositor is synonym to DE (?) and WM, but I have been using Xubuntu for many years, so Ubuntu with XFCE desktop. Does that answer the question? Is XFCE the WM then?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this part, I am a software developer but that part has never been of interest to me. I think it's time I learn a little bit more so at least I understand the talk... ;)
Show threadCroc in a Froc (SuperGaytor)May 23
@jerry1970 @justine ah, in the Wayland... Land what would have traditionally been seperate components (the display server, window manager, and compositor) are one and are just called a compositor. The compositor can still be seperated from DE if designed to be modular. XFCE uses XFWM4 by default, which is an X11 window manager, but I understand you can BYO including Wayland compositors, but here be dragons!
Show threadStanislav OchotnickýMay 23
@jerry1970 @justine there's a few things (that not everyone cares about ). Lower input latency, smoother animations and general graphical performance since there's fewer layers between app and hardware. Better HiDPI support, better touch support in general. Though I think the last bit is less of a problem with libinput handling that even on X. Security is often mentioned but I never heard a good story how it's meant protect against attacker on local system 😂
Show threadChipMay 24

@jerry1970 @justine I think there are some architectural advantages to Wayland, but the main thing in my mind is developer support for X.org is dwindling. It’s an old code base and it’s not easy to work on. It looks like there are still some people fixing security issues, but it’s sporadic. About three updates a year. https://x.org/wiki/Development/Security/

That’s probably okay now, but it will become increasingly less okay as time goes on.

Security

Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 24
@justine @bytex64 I'll take your word for it. I have no idea what X or Wayland actually do and what needs to be updated. It is of course a source of concern, but whatever I read about Wayland, that does not seem to be finished yet, so that is also a concern. I want my apps to work and show up, and my desktop to work (window resizing with mouse and keys, moving a file from browser to editor or file manager, making screenshorts and screen recordings, sharing screen and sound, etc.). If that does not work then it is useless. I wonder what alternatives there are.
Show threadJerry 🇸🇪May 23

@justine Reading up on window managers I come across "Qtile is a customizable tiling window manager that works on X11 and Wayland." So X11 and Wayland are not window managers? I am confused. What do X11 and Wayland do then? And in Xubuntu, what is the window manager I am using?

I read some apps do not work on Wayland. I'd like to find a list of which those are.

And most importantly, I love my desktop experience with windows (styling, snapping to screen and each other) and using the mouse and keyboard (alt-right-drag to resize etc.). Does that work the same?

Show threadJustine SmithiesMay 23
See here for a description of X11 and Wayland.

https://linuxiac.com/xorg-x11-wayland-linux-display-servers-and-protocols-explained/
Xorg, X11, Wayland? Linux Display Servers And Protocols Explained

Have you ever wondered what X server, Xorg, X11, Wayland, and stuff like that do? Wayland vs. Xorg. This guide is for you!

Linuxiac
Show threadZeStig     May 23
@jerry1970 an X11 window manager is roughly analogous to a Wayland compositor. (I know this isn't exactly correct; don't come after me, I'm just trying to simplify things)

Wayland will become the standard one day (tho imo it has been ready for years).

Qtile serves as an XOrg window manager and as a Wayland compositor, but most others follow only either.

I3, for instance, works on X11 and the Wayland analogue is called Sway (this need not be the case; indeed i3 is probably the only X11 WM that has a direct Wayland compositor counterpart)

Xubuntu uses a desktop environment called XFCE; Wayland support is (still) experimental on XFCE.

Again, think of X11 and Wayland as 2 very different ways to run a GUI (again, apologies for the oversimplification).

XOrg apps work on Wayland through a "bridge" called XWayland. Wayland-native apps don't work on X11 AFAIK.

Hope this simplifies things! (Feel free to get back in case you have any further queries)
And to the advanced readers, I know I've made mistakes and oversimplifications, but this is just for ease of understanding.
Show threadZeStig     May 23
@jerry1970 additional info:

- Wayland compositors should behave almost exactly like X11 WMs.
- you might need to tweak XCompose settings (ignore if you have no idea what this is)
- stuff like drag and drop should work fine (mostly if not always), but again, this is dependent on the implementation (I might be wrong about this)

XOrg/X11 serves as a base for DEs and WMs. Many "features" can be, in a sense, shared.

It is up to Wayland compositors to implement protocols, and so features may vary. Some don't support idle daemons yet, some support everything (Hyprland is an excellent Wayland compositor for instance)