George Takei  🏳️‍🌈🖖🏽2d ago
This is about all of us. Never forget that.
Show thread🌼 Dagnabbit, Pascaline! 🌼2d ago

@georgetakei

Sadly, so true.
I am so sad the elections over here were before Trump was installed. Maybe we could have been like Canada, like Australia, and like Germany that saw the light: democracy has to be protected and defended, by law, against anti-democratic parties.

Show threadThomas 🚲2d ago
@pascaline @georgetakei assuming that Germany is safe is definitely not correct. Don't be fooled. The extreme right is still gaining traction here while center-left is twiddling their thumbs, afraid to take a stance.
Show thread🌼 Dagnabbit, Pascaline! 🌼

@thomas

I don't assume anything.

@georgetakei

May 4 at 6:07pmWeb
Show threadHans van Zijst2d ago
@🌼 Dagnabbit, Pascaline! 🌼 @Thomas 🚲

At least it's finally official that the nazis, calling themselves AfD these days, are a danger to democracy.

Question is what to do next. Illegalize them? That could help if elections are upcoming, but could do more harm than good now.

And it's not just Germany. We in the Netherlands have a fascist party as the biggest coalition partner, in France RN is way too popular, in the UK the smirk on legs Farage seems to be doing well and Romania is heading the same direction as we speak...

They're back. Were they ever really gone..?

@George Takei :verified: 🏳️‍🌈🖖🏽
Show threadPapageier2d ago

@hans I hear the 'could do more harm than good' argument a lot these days. But nobody seems to really explain why.

I mean, sure, it's not just a single court decision and they're gone. We need to close their offices, seize their money, ban them from the media, remove them from public jobs - it's a long way. But if we do not do this now, then when? They are haters, they are not going to go away peacefully if we just wait.

Show threadHans van Zijst1d ago
@Papageier Illegalizing a party isn't that difficult. But it doesn't destroy the ideas behind it

Fact is that lots of people voted for them, illegalizing the party doesn't suddenly change all those people's minds. In fact, most of them will see it as the oppression of their ideas, a political action against a considerable part of the population.

The fundamental problem is not the party, but the number of people that share those ideas.

Again, if you illegalize the party shortly before elections, people can't vote for them. But if you do that now, there's plenty of time to found another party with the same basic ideas. One that can tell people the government doesn't listen to the population's wishes and that they will if people just vote for them.

Use of drugs didn't stop once it became forbidden, you know what they say about the forbidden fruit.

If you simply illegalize AfD, their successor (and there will be a successor, very quickly) will probably get bigger than AfD now.
Show threadPapageier1d ago

@hans Understood, thanks for the explanation. I think there are two points I'd like to make.

On the one hand, though I am with you in that AfD and members will act as the poor victims of horribly unjust political oppression, I think there is only bad/wrong timing for such a ban. If you try the ban earlier (like it was attempted with NPD a few years back), the German Supreme Court will dismiss the ban request due to lack of political relevance - even if the party is definitely extremist. If you try it later (like now), your odds to get the ban through are considerably better, but then you always have the voices claiming "you can't oppress the opinion of so many people". So the time will never be right for a ban request. Which means now is as good a time as any other.

The other point is: when the German Supreme Court bans a party, all successors and alternates are automatically banned as well. You can't just re-brand and re-launch. And all your assets are seized anyway. So a ban is really a powerful act.

Show threadThomas 🚲2d ago

@hans For Germany, I think this needs to be outlawed/illegalized. We have humanitarian values in our constitution that should be the standard to measure policy against and fascism and racism simply do not hold up to that standard.

That said, we definitely have a larger societal problem to deal with, once we have made sure these fascists cannot take over our democracy.

To paraphrase Popper: no tolerance for the intolerant. Hard, but necessary