db0Just a friendly reminder
PerhapsjustsniffitAnd the courts won’t help you.
themoonisacheeseThe courts can’t help you, even if they wanted (they don’t)
Can’t they still slam Trump?
They’re gonna drag him
Hestia [she/her, fae/faer]Naming my future gun “the ballot box”
People that have everything will not let it go without violence.
PvP will be required … in Minecraft.
You think the 90M people that couldn’t be bothered to vote against fascism are going to take to the streets and fight?
Electoral voting is useless and built to disenfranchise and demotivate people participating from politics. Doing direct action immediately improves your life and builds mutual aid networks. So yes.
It’s useless, yet it’s exactly why we have a fascist dictator? That’s tautological.
You would get a fascist dictator regardless. That has always been the inevitable path of liberal electoral politics under capitalism.
Ah, defeatism. It’s going to happen anyway, so why bother doing anything about it. Great outlook.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I suggest the opposite of “doing nothing”. Voting is doing nothing every 4 years and expecting things to improve in the face of 100 years of evidence to the contrary.
I insist that you’re incorrect, based on the simple fact that 77M people voted for a fascist dictator and now we have a fascist dictator. Clearly voting does something, or we wouldn’t have a fascist dictator for president.
Yes, electoral politics inevitably and eventually “does” fascism.
LadyAutumnKinda ignores the reality that the past 3 election cycles have been fascist vs. a party that positions itself as progressive “not fascists.” You’d think that, you know. The “not fascists” would’ve done something to prevent the fascists from gaining power.
Instead, they endorsed international colonialism and genocide and spent 4 years fighting back against workers’ rights.
Electoral liberalism trends towards the right over time. As a rule. Because capitalist interests are always further to the right, and electoral liberalism is based on capitalism and the existence of a capitalist ruling class. Any ideology that permits the existence of capitalism must include very strong limits on capitalist enterprise and absolute bans on capital political power and influence. Or, by default, it becomes more fascist over time. Anti-capitalism is the only ideology congruent with antifascism.
Libra00They aren’t saying do nothing, they’re saying do something more useful than voting.
And I’m saying not voting is how we got fascism. There were 13M more people that did nothing, than all 77M people who voted for Trump. I don’t expect them to fight unless personally attacked.
That leaves the ~78M people that collectively voted against Trump. Then remove the sick, disabled, elderly, government, military, and police. We’re not getting anywhere with force unless we can engage the 90M people who couldn’t be inconvenienced to put pen to paper to stop fascism.
Oh, are you under the impression that there’s a group of liberals (as in liberalism in general) out there that doesn’t coddle and appease and enable fascism that I could vote for? Because Democrats are putting up the most token of resistance at best, and meanwhile voting in support of the right’s shenanigans in congress. Schumer voted for the budget, 4 others voted for a bill that would effectively disenfranchise millions of women, etc.
If you walk into a voting booth and find someone holding a bomb who insists that your only choice for how to deal with it is to choose between a long fuse or a short one, the only sane thing to do is to say ‘Good luck with that’ and leave before you get caught in the blast radius. I voted blue for 30 years and it didn’t get me less fascism, why do you imagine it would suddenly start working today?
I’m saying that Harris was not a fascist dictator. Simple as.
No, she probably wouldn’t have been. But hey, if you’re comfortable cuddling up with that bomb because it has a longer fuse then by all means don’t let me stop you, just don’t act all surprise when it inevitably blows up anyway.
So you’re an accelerationist. Gotcha. The problem with accelerating into fascism is that not enough people have been made aware of their oppression along the way. This is far more likely to result in a lasting dictatorship than the revolution from a longer fuse.
What I am is not complicit with the motherfuckers who are blowing people up; the only solution to the trolley problem is to walk away, because the minute you put your hand on that lever—whether you pull it or not—you become at least partly responsible for every single death on those tracks. You can call that whatever helps you sleep at night.
The choices were genocide or genocide and fascism. Abstaining for my feelings is the same as voting for genocide and fascism. I chose the lesser of two evils, which has always been the only choice in US elections.
I was referring to the person in the voting booth with the bomb, but it extrapolates well to that situation too: if your choice is genocide or genocide and fascism the only sane choice for anyone with a conscience and a shred of compassion is to walk away from both. Never let anyone tell you you only have two choices in a situation, it’s a failure of imagination on their part at best and blatant manipulation and at worst. Choosing the lesser evil is still choosing evil. I chose something else.
Again, walking away from both is refusing to stand in the way of fascism. My feelings are not as important as my responsibility.
People keep trying to blame this on those of us who didn’t vote blue no matter who and it’s the worst kind of victim-blaming bullshit. I have one vote, I didn’t give it to the fascists or their appeasers and collaborators. If that’s not good enough for you then you are cordially invited to fuck all the way off.
If you want to lay the blame at someone’s feet maybe start with the guy who said he wouldn’t run again and then did anyway, then cocked it up by clearly not being fit and waiting so long to step down. Or the party that has been moving to the right on every economic issue since at least the 80s, having no positive vision for the future and has now become more concerned about being seen giving only the most token of resistance with those stupid fucking signs that accomplish nothing rather than actually trying to take a few plays out of McConnell’s obstructionist book.
If you voted blue you didn’t stand in the way of fascism, you enabled it, so don’t put that shit on me.
McConnell used the filibuster to prevent legislation from passing in Congress. That doesn’t work on any of Trumps 100+ executive orders.
I’m not “putting anything on you.” I’m saying if you didn’t vote against fascism, then you enabled it. Simple as.
PsychadelligoatI’m saying if you didn’t vote against fascism, then you enabled it. Simple as
And, as they said, that’s stupid and wrong to do, as it’s not on them, dipshit
Yeah he used lots of other shit too, like flatly refusing to even hold confirmation hearings for supreme court justices, etc. There are many tools in that toolbox. I’d be content to see Democrats use even one or two, cause those little fucking signs ain’t cutting it.
I’m saying if you didn’t vote against fascism, then you enabled it. Simple as.
And I’m saying any vote that isn’t in support of fascism is a vote against it, and I’ve already said I didn’t vote for the fascists, so it kinda seems like you are.
None of those tools apply to an executive order. The literal only tool in the box for Congress is to force a 15-day vote. They did, and Republicans redefined the entire congressional calendar as a single day to avoid holding the vote.
That’s why they’ve been partnering with the ACLU to bring these cases to the courts.
Right, because the only attempted fascism has been executive orders, right? Oh wait, last I heard Mitch McConnell was a member of congress and congress doesn’t issue executive orders, do they? I bet there’s a clue in there as to what I was talking about.
Bringing cases to court is absolutely a good and necessary thing and I have no complaints about their efforts in that department. My complaints have been their complicity with and appeasement of the fascist program, and the fact that they have the gall to bitch about their constituents expecting them to do their job.
Why don’t you run yourself?
FingolfinzThey stated a fact, that not defeatism. WTF is with people getting mad at the messenger all the time
The message that voting would’ve done nothing to stop Trump from being elected is nonsensical.
Not what they said at all
They always attack as soon as they get lost. Instead of asking questions and perhaps learning new opinions it’s much easier to just call names.
It’s quite tragic too, I would hate to deny myself knowledge just to satisfy my ego. We’d be in a much better place if people wouldn’t double down and would just learn from the experience
It doesn’t take 90M people to blow up a pipeline.
SoftestSapphicCan you point to a single US election where the half the country that never votes magically showed up to vote?
If not maybe don’t rely on a group of people that will never participate.
Everyone agitating for an overthrow of the system through memes is going to get out there and start doing it any day now just you wait…
Aaaaaaaany day now…
True. What works best is being a smug “nothing ever happens” lib online and doing one political action every 4 years.
I mean, that’s what this amounts to. So yeah, I agree.
TBF thats exactly what happened with Trump.
QAnon, dude. Wtf.
Sickos [they/them, it/its]Perfectly true.
But anarchism hasn’t exactly been very productive over the last century when it comes to providing alternatives, has it?
Anarchism has been very productive in improving the lives of those who practice it. Bringing about things like the 40-hour week. Anarchism doesn’t have to become the sociopolitical system to be beneficial. Look into prefiguration and also look at the comm rules.
Bringing about things like the 40-hour week.
Can you show me anywhere in the world where anarchism is as strongly represented in labor movements as it was in Spain during the 1930s?
Looking at the past does not make the present any better.
Anarchism doesn’t have to become the sociopolitical system to be beneficial.
So what should it be then? A vanguard in everything but name?
Look into prefiguration
I’d love to… but where is it? Every time I ask anarchists this, they point me to social projects such as that happening in northern Syria and Chiappas in Mexico - social projects that reject the anarchist label. And I don’t exactly blame them for rejecting it, either - trying to “preconfigure” something when your theory is too damn orthodox to even allow you to understand what “preconfiguring” should actually look like is a pretty obvious sociopolitical dead-end.
Can you show me anywhere in the world where anarchism is as strongly represented in labor movements as it was in Spain during the 1930s?
Can you show me anywhere in the world where Liberal Capitalist Democracy was strongly represented in 1400s? See how absurd this statement is?
So what should it be then? A vanguard in everything but name?
The opposite. Improving the lives of people practicing it in the here and now through anarchist praxis. People can practice direct action for mutual aid right now.
I’d love to… but where is it?
Prefiguration is a theory of praxis
See how absurd this statement is?
Liberalism is literally the ideology of the status quo now.
Is it absurd to point that out, too?
Prefiguration is a theory of praxis
Soooo… the failure of anarchism to actually preconfigure anything since the end of WW2 in the face of massive liberal counter-insurgency is perhaps tied to anarchist’s theories about preconfiguration not being remotely good enough - if they even exist at all?
Liberalism is literally the ideology of the status quo now.
Is it absurd to point that out, too?
What’s absurd is to claim that a radical socioeconomic reconfiguration can’t happen because it hasn’t happened yet.
Soooo… the failure of anarchism to actually preconfigure anything since the end of WW2 in the face of massive liberal counter-insurgency is perhaps tied to anarchist’s theories about preconfiguration not being remotely good enough - if they even exist at all?
Anarchist prefigure things all the time. Mutual Banks, Cooperatives, Anarcho-syndicalist unions, food banks, soup kitchens and so much more. Don’t know what the fuck you’re on about.
what a shitty and irrelevant argument
Anarchists saved and improved countless lives in the last few years by doing direct action. They rescue(d) and support(ed) refugees, fed people all over the world, setup bail funds and so much more.
Actually impacting other peoples lives (and your oen) directly is a pretty appealing alternative imo.
They rescue(d) and support(ed) refugees, fed people all over the world, setup bail funds and so much more.
This is all great - but lots of organizations and movements are doing direct action of all kinds. Can you seriously tell me that this represents a functional political movement that would be capable of surviving and thriving if a convulsive revolution were to kick off tomorrow?
Who said anything about anarchism? I’d be happy to just get democracy back.
I’d be happy to just get democracy back.
When did we have democracy?
Depends on you threshold but we have had it for a while. No need to spend money on elections or news media if we didn’t have a democracy.
Depends on you threshold but we have had it for a while
Getting to “choose” which pack of political racketeers gets to be the public face of capitalist looting and pillaging falls outside my threshold… which means that we’ve never had anything that can be called “democracy” with a straight face.
If we accept the liberals’ definition of democracy we might just as well accept the tankie’s definition of socialism, too - both are equally warped and vile.
Ok then, using your metrics we never had democracy. Using my metrics we had democracy, and I would prefer that to fascism.
But I also like stronger democracy. So if we can make improvements I’m all for it.
If I were (as a thought exercise) to consider your metrics for democracy valid, I’d have to enquire as to what the point of democracy even is if it comes with fascism as a built-in feature - which, of course, is perfectly acceptable if we were to use your metrics.
And that’s before we even get into the nitty gritty of how your metrics of democracy solves the fundamentally violent and fundamentally irreconcilable incompatibility between democratic values and the capitalist mode of production.