Stevoisiak
Nowhere GirlOne of the ways fascism crept in over the years is people insisted on having "debates" with people who refused to be proven wrong (e.g., vaccines, trans rights and healthcare, climate) even though they obviously were from a scientific, factual, or moral standpoint. All in the name of "free speech" and an open marketplace of ideas. What we need to learn is to tell these people to shut the fuck up.
If someone still thinks, e.g., vaccines cause autism, they should be told they're stupid and to shut their fucking mouths for the rest of their lives.
American Nazis have gained a lot of ground by just standing there saying the same stupid, wrong shit over and over again and demanding to be proven wrong even though they won't accept any evidence to the contrary. The whole thing is done in bad faith. But our white liberal politicians and media figures are paralyzed by this kind of rhetorical attack because they want to be likable more than they want to be right either.
Alexander Knochel@gwynnion Seems like they haven't been on the internet enough
FoolishOwl@gwynnion It's a basic tactic the far right has honed for decades. It's a variant of the Gish Gallop, but instead of making lots of false statements, they'll just ask the same question, over and over. And dumbass liberals will fall for it every time, patiently answering in detail, so we never have a real discussion.
It's one reason why complaints about leftists being too into theory is infuriating. We're not answering those questions because they're not real questions.
Bredroll@foolishowl @gwynnion or, they phrase the stupid assertions like a question, eg, "is Obama really an American? Are you sure?"
Gary Strydom's Tiny Car@Bredroll @foolishowl @gwynnion don't "debate" them, don't platform them, just hit them as hard as you can with whatever you have on hand. Don't play their fucking game
jesterchen42@foolishowl @gwynnion To (deepl) quote Göbbels:
"The essence of propaganda is therefore constant simplicity and repetition. Only those who can reduce problems to the simplest formula and have the courage to keep repeating them in this simplified form, even against the objections of intellectuals, will achieve fundamental success in influencing public opinion in the long term." (1942)
And it's quite sad that our media and politicians STILL aren't recognizing and disarming this. 1/x
@foolishowl @gwynnion And this is not just a problem of Brandolini's law. This is self-doubt, stupidity, fear - and a wrong sense of tolerance.
You HAVE to say things are bs if they really are. And you have to either not send stuff like that on the news or you MUST quote it and(!) tell, why this was utter bs. And then perhaps keep count how many times a politician had been corrected this way.
If the media is working properly, this wasn't a problem. But with media belonging to too few people...
@foolishowl @gwynnion P.S. Times in which you had to have *courage* against the objections of intellectuals seem like better times to me.
Matt HallHear, hear.
Infinite tolerance only makes sense in good faith situations.
These people have _never_ operated in good faith.
I've been made sick by the recent insistence of Democratic leadership that we behave decorously.
What... Are we afraid of being called names? These people are going to call us names regardless. Lean into it and shut 'em down.
Xerz 💗@gwynnion ok but
balletproof vest@gwynnion I know vegetarian anarchists who believe this :(
Plumbmonkey@gwynnion, it's interesting, we talk about free speech, yet I was blocked on X for posting cartoons about Trump and pushing back against people making dumb comments about Canada. I deactivated that debauchery. That isn't really me anyway. This is more my style. https://youtu.be/KtbnmeyUjS0?si=YZdJM0k99C8Ou3Sd
Crimson Horizon ( Rock Anthem Edition)
Robin Barton@gwynnion The goal is not truth or falsehood but a cynical denial that either exist. When that occurs then the loudest emotional voice wins.
I am Jack's Lost 404
Johns@gwynnion The sealioning (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning , for those who don't know) was at the foundation of that.
Luckily, some of us learnt from the comic and avoided the conversation altogether. Sadly, most of the people didn't.
Barbara Sliwinska@gwynnion U let authoritarian regime into Ur country, hearts, brains
simply cause U never lived under it & dont know what regime is, how to recognise it & fight with
Ur possibility is to learn from refugees/ immigrants; many of them know it perfectly; people from east europe, asia, africa and so on
but U prefer to not learn & rather expel migrants. so possibility is lost and regime grows. deal with it
U haven't resistance cause aren't vaccinated on authoritarian regime! learn above said or die
simply cause U never lived under it & dont know what regime is, how to recognise it & fight with
Ur possibility is to learn from refugees/ immigrants; many of them know it perfectly; people from east europe, asia, africa and so on
but U prefer to not learn & rather expel migrants. so possibility is lost and regime grows. deal with it
U haven't resistance cause aren't vaccinated on authoritarian regime! learn above said or die
Dopes The Frogman@gwynnion exactly, we tried being the "bigger man" to the ignorant and uneducated. We tried to be voices of reason to those who didn't want to be reasoned with.
Now, fuck them. Public mockery of their ignorance is encouraged.
Supportive Tree-based lifeform@gwynnion This is on point. For example Jordan Peterson got famous from lying about a canadian law offering some slim considerations for trans people. Media treats these liars with respect and then billionaire orgs scoop up the liars and media orgs.
Those three elements are core to all right wing media: Lies, targetting out groups, and billionaire media funding. It should be seen as a coordinated process.
ElementalWizard 🇨🇦 🇺🇦@gwynnion Yep. "We need to hear both sides." Even though one side is obviously wrong and arguing in bad faith.
Tolerance is a social contract. It only stands up when everyone abides by it.
@gwynnion We need to understand we are only providing a platform for fascism. As Mark Twain stated, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".
xs4me2Can say that again…
juniyonul@gwynnion I think the problem was also in the nature of privative social media: they rewarded this shitty content. Their owners designed algorithms focused on making people angry, confrontate crazy ideas with factual and reasonable ideas, etc. This same argument can be also applied to mass media, that followed the same logics as social media. Everything was/is valid for the sake of engagement, views and interactions.
Answeradams@gwynnion some things have two debatable sides. Some have many. But you nailed that we lost sight of the fact that some things are just provably wrong. If it’s settled fact, I have no problem telling someone they are just wrong. If they want to continue “arguing” they are then both wrong and stupid.
Dr Andrew A. Adams #FBPE 🔶
Markus Redeker 🐘@a_cubed @gwynnion There is no paradox in the “paradox of tolerance”.
Our goal should be to let as much tolerance happen as possible, not to be tolerant to everything in every situation. With that in mind it is no problem to stop people from doing intolerant actions, because as result of this, more tolerance happens than otherwise.
Being tolerant ourselves is still a good thing — most of the time.
Fazal Majid@gwynnion the problem is, as the Scopes monkey trial showed a century ago, there are more people with crazy belief than rational or science based ones, and any government based control over misinformation is more likely to be used against us than the likes of RFK Jr.
Brosef@gwynnion I started telling people to stfu a few years ago after a 2 year hiatus of trying to debate idiots.
everton137@gwynnion I just shared a thought with a similar concern in mind, those who still haven't left the stage of a fascist because they think they can argue. On the contrary, they only help to spread more fascist ideas, especially when the owner has control over the algorithms of his disinformation tools.
everton137 (@[email protected])
There seems to be a consensus among reasonable people* that we shouldn't give a stage to fascists. What surprises me is that few people have realized that you shouldn't be on a fascist's stage, no matter how many cool people follow or listen to you. It's a political act to draw attention away from the disinformation tools used to push a far-right agenda. Afraid of losing your precious connections? Tell them where you're going, and those who matter will follow. * No, those who make decisions in the mainstream media are obviously not among the reasonable. #LeaveX #eXodus #eXit #EscapeX #X #fascism #farright #disinformation #journalism #media
Toni Aittoniemi@gwynnion ”I’m apolitical” is the rallying cry of useful idiots and patsies all around the world.
They’re walking around with their eyes closed, refusing to acknowledge they’re part of whole, used and abused by clever tricksters on words time and time again.
They always fall for the same trick: The trickster claims those who support the scientific, factual or historical truth are political. (Then repeats it enough times)
Martin@gwynnion oh that's interesting. My take is the opposite. Like it or not, these opinions exist. Like it or not, the debates will happen. Drawing a line and refusing to debate bad ideas will just let those ideas roam free.
Of course, not everything needs to be a debate all the time. Nor does every forum need to allow room for every topic.
@"Orange guy be like... I don't know what I'm doing so ya know... one of these days we will do that thing. Wait, what was the thing we are doing? So it will be at some point. Can anyone remind me what I was talking about? Adulting is so hard... Where is my VP?"
Pēteris Krišjānis@gwynnion I think the biggest failure was for media to be commercialised. This led to editorial policies of not weighting arguments. Media recited presented arguments as news, not analysing them. So in turn we had echo chambers, and most of these people have OCD level obsession of repeating their own ill ideas over and over again.
Self doubt was applied only by one side, while the other side remains fanatically wrong, enriched by echo chambers easily provided by commercial media.
Self doubt was applied only by one side, while the other side remains fanatically wrong, enriched by echo chambers easily provided by commercial media.
ChookMother 🇦🇺🦘@gwynnion 50 years ago they were treated as the wacky fringe, now they get a spot in the mainstream media.