Paul CantrellFeb 25

Just to be clear, because a bunch of assholes have hijacked public perception and lifted up some of the worst people on Earth as exemplars of what the “tech world” is supposed to be:

I’ve been in the software world for decades, surrounded by thoughftul, creative, and humane people with whom I’ve formed many wonderful friendships and done meaningful work. That’s possible. It’s normal, even.

You don’t have to become a sociopath to make it in the tech world. Or a malignant narcissist. Or a Nazi.

Your instincts to be a decent person are good instincts. Don’t let anyone talk you into being an antisocial monster. You don’t have to be.

Show threadPaul Cantrell

NO:

“Look, these Muskerbergzos types are kind of dislikable, sure, but they’re just proof that that’s what it takes to succeed! Gotta be a shitstain if you want to get ahead!”

YES:

“All decent and wise people have some sense of ‘enough.’ Past a certain point, pursuit of further wealth is nothing but a sign of deep psychological brokenness.”

Feb 25 at 8:55pmWeb
Show threadYeshayaFeb 25
@inthehands you say psychological, I say spiritual. 🙂 I think my way is better because it doesn't lump them in with people who are mentally ill rather than just wicked
Show threadPaul CantrellFeb 25

@alter_kaker
You have a really good point.

There may be some of both: one friend of mine has a pet theory that a lot of people who got super wealthy off of investing in fact have a gambling addiction, and just happen to have got lucky while feeding that addiction. Gambling addiction •is• in fact a very real and serious mental illness, and labeling it as spiritual would of course be problematic. There may be a similar line of thought for sociopathy.

So I guess good to be cautious in both directions here?

Show threadYeshayaFeb 25
@inthehands perhaps, and I like your counterpoint. On the other hand, it's a well known thing among people who talk about spiritual things that a spiritual illness can manifest itself in mental and physical illness as well... So I suppose that those are simply different modalities of thinking about life and the universe (and everything 😉).

But at the same time, what those people really are about is power over others, and I don't think that it can be excused by calling it a compulsion. We all have inclinations, and the point (or one of the points) of spiritual practice is to gain mastery over them.
Show threadPaul CantrellFeb 25
@alter_kaker
Yes, agreed, seeking power over others and relishing cruelty are neither the same as nor explained by addiction etc.
Show threadJennifer Kayla | Theogrin 🦊Feb 25

@inthehands @alter_kaker

I'd wonder -- I've read about such things as the aformal diagnosis of affluenza; the more formal one of hoarding (Plyushkin's in the DSM); gambling disorders, particularly when associated with other variants of ADHD... and more. What we have here, though, isn't merely the accumulation of wealth in its most insubstantial and ephemeral form, but a casual, caustic cruelty which isn't necessarily associated with any of those. Maybe affluenza, but even that's a stretch.

It's one thing to be so ensconced that it's difficult to relate to the ordinary person, and quite another to act like the very worst parodies, stealing bread from a starving infant while twirling one's mustache.

Show threadMidniteMikeWritesFeb 26

@theogrin @inthehands @alter_kaker I know there is some literature on the ways that being in positions of power changes the brain too, Brian Klaas highlights it in his book Corruptible on top of the types of people already likely to seek power.

Tech also sits at the confluence of military + (VC) money, I just wonder if there are specific types of selection effects that creates. On top of the ethos that some (Thiel for example) brought with them coming in and have encouraged as they succeeded.

Show threadA Flock of BeaglesFeb 26

@inthehands @alter_kaker

being an exploitive bastard who steals from workers and gives nothing to society is not a mental illness. please stop trying to attribute mental illness to all malice, it's extremely ableist and gets disabled people killed.

an addiction is a disability. the owning class is not disabled by capitalism because they privately own the means of production, and steal wealth by paying wages to workers. all profit is unpaid, stolen wealth.

this is not an excuse to pull out another armchair diagnosis. the interest of capitalists is maintaining the power to waste our time by making us chase money to stay housed and fed. they would not have their wealth to gamble if they didn't steal it first. they'll gamble because they can do it without consequence.

Show threadKrzysztof SakrejdaFeb 26
@inthehands @alter_kaker while mentally ill is not the same as evil it's certainly one of the things that can drive people into resentment and cruel behavior (e g -alcoholism and narcissistic personality as top examples), there's no fundamental need to invoke a more ambiguous mechanism although the proximate issue is that people don't take responsibility for their own actions and have an otherwise broken system of personal ethics.
Show threadAaron Sawdey, Ph.D.Feb 25
@inthehands It's difference between doing the work because you want to build something useful and chasing the startup cash-out.