2/ BTW, let me kinda repeat an impression I shared a few months ago[1] after participating in the #Rust for #Linux discussion on the invitation only #Kernel maintainer summit (https://lwn.net/Articles/991062/):

Many #LinuxKernel core maintainers including Linus really want Rust for Linux to succeed.

Sure, there are technical problems and hurdles that need to be solved – and humans to be motivated and convinced. But given such strong backing I'm pretty sure that will happen.

[1] https://fosstodon.org/@kernellogger/113152874199481591

3/ Ohh, and if you haven't seen this, see also this post from @sima and the reply from @airlied about the #Rust for #Linux DMA drama:

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/Z6OzgBYZN[email protected]/T/#u

'"The r4l team and drm maintainer team have this sort of thing in hand, it's not like we don't understand the community of the Linux kernel, and having this first reaction to blow shit up and dramatise it just isn't helpful."'

#Rustlang #LinuxKernel

@kernellogger @sima @airlied kinda torn between the "trust in the institutions" and "the institutions have failed us" takes here.

im at least optimistic that the kernel (as an institution) has demonstrated a pretty good capability to change when change is justified... but still, that most of Marcan's points are more or less ignored in favour of shunning him for acting uncivilised doesn't fill me with optimism

@cas @kernellogger @sima @airlied the issue isn't bringing up those points. Most involved there not even denied that those are actual problems.

The issue is more, that you can't really have it both ways.

If you go full drama public and burn everything down, then people might just decide not wanting to deal with you any further. There are all human beings in the end. And sure, it's super frustrating, and everybody gets that.

But you also need to stay pragmatic and find your paths forward.

@karolherbst @kernellogger @sima @airlied yeah i suppose. but nobody speaking out (being "uncivil") is also how we end up with screwed up institutions

bweh idk,,

@cas @kernellogger @sima @airlied yeah.. I fully understand that dilemma.

If the goal was to just stir up shit and call it out, fine, that's kinda deserved, but you also have to stay realistic about the consequences.

It's a long ongoing issue and I don't want this to be a "yeah everybody has to stay civil" take either.

Sometimes it's entirely needed to call things out. Just sometimes people also perceive it as meddling and will have to deal with the fallout behind the scenes we don't see.

@karolherbst @cas @kernellogger @airlied yeah this isn't about "being civil" or "friendly" and even less about "don't call out"

this is about calling out in an ineffective and imprecise way, so that the people actually trying to change things are busy patching up your collateral damage instead of implementing real changes, while all you've achieved is airing your frustration for internet drama points

@karolherbst @cas @kernellogger @airlied when you're that harmful with your calling out, eventually I'm going to be fed up, and you get a live round shot across your bow

and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner:

fuck off