Sine_Fine_BelliFlag flown upside down as sign of distress outside of US State Department building today
I don’t understand what it’s going to take for someone to do something. Protests are not going to work when they’re holding all our money, services, rights, data, etc hostage, and threatening all our public servants. We already had a hard time protesting before this, because health care is tied to employment. It’s not a coincidence that they’re going after Medicare and Medicaid. They want an entire nation of indentured servants. Unable to own anything, including our own freedom. When we can’t work anymore we can just go die in the wilderness like animals I guess. Hmm where have we heard that before?
Everyone is terrified and exhausted. It seems pretty evident that the election was outright stolen, and I have a hard time believing nobody in power suspected something that many of us immediately called, not with the mountains of evidence that’s been stacking up for months, years even. So why didn’t they do anything? Why did they wait until Trump was sworn in to even talk about it?
I see Canadians online talking about Americans like we chose this. But we didn’t, it was forced upon us, and we’re begging for help! Who can we turn to if not our allies? What is going on???
LerajeIt wasn’t stolen and it wasn’t forced on you. Depressingly enough, turkeys, it seems, do sometimes vote for Christmas. I totally agree with you about the awfulness of the situation but - he told you how he was going to govern, he told you what he was going to do and then he won the election that enables him to do it. You did, as a nation, choose this.
I don’t know how any nation state can really intervene on the basis. Its not like Hitler steam rolling Poland or Putin annexing the Crimea - this isn’t an invasion or a hostile takeover, it’s an elected President carrying out the will of the people that voted for him.
I’m not going to argue with you, I get enough of that on reddit. But there is a literal mountain of evidence, including their own statements and sketchy behavior, hard data, unsecured voting machines, various voter suppression tactics, ballots that were tossed, code that was published online months (possibly more than a year) before the election, and one of the twerps currently taking over the treasury wrote code that can falsify ballots while he was an intern for Musk.
Also, it is like Hitler, they’re using the same exact playbook, and while there are some key differences there is no arguing that this is the exact reason NATO exists. Justin Trudeau could invoke article 4 for threats of invasion. Someone from our government should still be able to invoke article 5. These international agreements exist because when the highest power in the nation is compromised, we need outside help.
This is literally the first I’ve heard of any of these things and whilst I’m not in North America I follow the political situation pretty closely. I’m not saying your wrong about any of it but who are the people saying this and where are they saying it? Has it been reported on either internally or externally to the US?
The overall playbook is fascist I agree but the situation I was trying to compare was Hitler invading a sovereign nation. Trump hasn’t done that (yet anyway). I’ve got good friends in the US and I am very worried about them, I’m just not sure you’re betting on the right horse by asking for outside nation-state aid. Rightly or wrongly they’ll see that Trump was elected legally and they’re never going to invade a country on that basis. There was zero talk of repercussions for Germany until Hitler invaded Poland because he followed the democratic process (or successfully manipulated it) to get elected and assume total power.
With all due respect, if this is the first you’re hearing of any of this, then no you are not following the situation “pretty closely.”
The hundreds of bomb threats from Russian servers on election day alone should be enough to convince people that some hinky shit was going on.
There’s all kinds of stuff on Bluesky, discussion on reddit and lemmy, lots of reliable sources like AP News, The Atlantic, and Gizmodo, as well as recordings of interviews with Musk, and of Trump rallies. There’s also hard ballot data from at least a few counties that has been studied by highly qualified analysts, and matches trends we see in elections in other countries that we know were a sham.
I could keep going but I’m tired and it’s just not worth it. You’re obviously skeptical, and that’s just human nature, but how am I supposed to convince a skeptic from another country who isn’t witnessing or experiencing this first hand? I’m not going to spin my wheels tracking down evidence for you, it’s not a good use of the limited energy I have left. If you’re truly curious the information is out there.
I’m not skeptical at all - I’m simply unaware of what you’re talking about. When I say I’m following the situation pretty closely I mean the political situation as reported in the mainstream press. I don’t think anyone who’s from a country not directly involved is going to be aware of every resource unless its a special interest of theirs or its their job. I wouldn’t expect someone not from the UK to be up to date with the latst developments of the Reform Party and how they’re trying to swing the narrative here. If you have links, link 'em, I will definitely read them all. I’m asking you to lift my ignorance on the subject.
See the edit to my OG comment. But know that I think you have some nerve denying that any of this is happening when you don’t even live in this country. Which you conveniently didn’t mention in your first reply to me.
I have seen more than one of these issues first hand, I will not try to convince a complete stranger of my lived experiences.
Don’t be silly. Where have I denied this is happening? I’ve already said to you I was unaware of what you were talking about and asked you to inform me. Whats all this posturing about? When did Lemmy become a place where anyone has to inform anyone else of what country they do or don’t live in?
You want the outside world to take notice? Maybe a good start would be to help those who are interested but not familiar with the level of detail you are to the knowledge about your country you assume we all already have. By adding context to your original comment you’ve already made it ten times more useful to people like me.
Gaslighting. or at best, not reflecting on your initial comment.
Making reference to Christmas & Turkey’s, and making authoritative statements that “no, it’s not happening“ doesn’t seem to me like the approach of someone who is genuinely open and curious to learn.
Why did you put “no its not happening” in quotes as though I said that when I said no such thing?
My first comment was made without the benefit of knowing anything at all about the idea that the election was stolen. I am far from unique in that opinion as it seems even some US citizens were unaware of it. Simply posting assertions which, on the face of it, seem improbable, without any kind of source to provide context to those claims isn’t going to inspire trust. If those links had been posted immediately I and others could’ve read them and had a more informed response.
From the moment I was told about this, my response changed to asking for more information - I said that I was clearly ignorant on the subject and asked to be educated on it.
There is a world of difference between someones views being shot down and someone being totally unaware and asking for sources to learn more.
Its a sad truth that there are a substantial amount of US citizens who seem to think that the entire world must know every intricate detail of the US political and legal system because America is the centre of the world. And then, when the rest of us admit we actually don’t, accusations of gaslighting and invalidation. No ones being gaslit or invalidated - we’re just not exposed or familiar with the same level of detail as you because we don’t live there. If you’re going to make a post essentially asking for the outside world to intervene, a good pace to start is by putting all the information there from the start, not going into a massive sulk because we’re not aware of the details.
did they falsify 86 million votes? because that’s how many people voted maga by sitting this one out.
I’m sorry, I’m Canadian, and what exactly do you think all of NATO could do, allied and organized against the American armed forces? Do you seriously believe we could stage an effective military campaign against America? That would he suicide.
WideEyedStupidIt’s just so fucked up, all of it. They’ve been pumping shitloads of money into their military for so long, it’s a behemoth larger than the next, what, 9 countries combined? All that money should have been spent on things that are actually good for U.S. citizens. A better educational system, a healthcare system, more worker protections, a better social security net, trying to fix homelessness, etc.
But now, their humongous military is going to be used against their own people and their allies. And all the while I’m here thinking that a well-educated, healthy, happy populace would have been much less inclined to vote a fascist into office. But hey, they didn’t need all that, they were already the best country in the world, right?
The worst part is that we’re rich enough as a country to have our obscene military spending and civilized healthcare and education, we just choose not to.
gandalf_der_12teyeah but if you give out civilized healthcare, how will you bully your people into working hard so they don’t end up in the trench abandoned?
Using NATO to stop Trump, you want WW3? Because that’s how you get WW3. You’re not going to get any help until you help yourselfs. It’s your house, you have to clean it up. If you need an idea of a place to start, I’d start with the Democrats.
If you have democratic senators you should be a thorn in their side about why aren’t they grinding the Senate to a halt. Why they aren’t using every tool available to resist senate Republicans. The Republicans did when Obama was president and he wasn’t a fascist. Now seems like a good time to start using all those republican cheats to blanket obstruct the Senate and Congress.
If you have republican senators you should be getting involved with the democratic party, first screaming and dragging everyone you know with you. Then demanding over and over that the old game is dead and they need you and the people to get out of this.
Regardless, no one is coming to save you. You need to first believe that you can actually work with your neighbors, then saves yourselves. Tons of Americans have been begging for your help to stop Trump for over a decade now and you thought it was just their job to take care of it. Well guess what, it was yours too and you failed to answer the call.
I don’t understand what it’s going to take for someone to do something
Who is someone? Who is something? Organize and mobilize. I know all Americans didn’t choose this, but you’ll need a lot of support/like minded folks (which it sounds like you have). Trump’s shock doctrine has clearly worked. Try and focus on tangible steps to take whether it’s annoying the heck out of your elected officials, joining a grassroots org, or attending a public rally on an off day.
Someone: NATO. This is the exact reason they exist.
Something: Remove the tyrants by force.
Myself and everyone I know have been doing all of the things you mentioned since November, if not earlier. There have been multiple massive protests. We have been calling our reps demanding recounts, asking why democrats are capitulating to unconstitutional actions, and begging for them to intervene. We have been protesting at every opportunity. We have joined and even started our own organizations trying to get people organized. Why aren’t we gaining any traction? Because they already stopped listening to us ages ago. Because all our means of large scale organization (Twitter, Instagram, Facebook) are actively suppressing information. Because every group we start gets brigaded and eventually shut down by internet trolls with nothing to lose. Because people are tired, sick, broke, and traumatized. The other day I watched an ICE raid happen in real time. These people were members of my community, good people, and now they’ve probably been sent to a concentration camp.
I don’t want to hear shit about “tangible steps.” What tangible steps can the average citizens of this country take to stop the richest man in the world, and multiple other billionaires, who already have their dirty paws in every single aspect of our government infrastructure? We can’t even get in the same room as the guy. He has choked our skies with satellites and has all our personal information.
Please tell me what else we’re supposed to do, I’m all ears.
You think NATO should attack its own most powerful member just because hou have a hunch that the election was stolen? So like Jan 6 but on steroids?
You must be a russian troll-bot. This is the problem with the Internet, anybody can say their own crazy ideas and others will take them seriously.
“Those who shout the loudest usually have the most to hide.”
dumb sentence without any meaning or content, except to make people shut up when they actually have something to say
The “something to say” being that I’m a Russian troll? Lol.
StarshotJohnDon’t argue with this child
Stop begging. Start demanding. They need to understand that democracy and unionization was the compromise. And, apparently, they won’t listen to words.
That’s neither easy, nor pretty, nor civilized. But they fucked around, and need to find out.
If you feel something, you’re never alone. Organize through meatspace, use no digital tools. Which manual are you following? There are plenty to find if you look.
I hear you… The problem is no one is going to come save us.
Change can only happen internally.
Unsure what can be done though… Voting and protests don’t seem to be effective…
If nothing changes everyone will have to get comfortable enough to feel like freedom is fighting for.
This means first amendment up, train, and be ready for the day to when we need to defend our constitution.
The confederacy already lost once, they will lose again.
At the rate this is going I honestly don’t see any other future.
What are you asking outside forces to do? Invade America and install a foreign government because americans are unable to maintain their freedom?
Perhaps we can ask the Taliban for help
You’re saying that like it’s a bad thing? If that’s what needs to happen so that Elon Musk doesn’t irreparably damage our country and cause the deaths of millions, then yes. Please. Invade us. We’ve done it to plenty of other countries, maybe it’s our turn.
Also yeah, that’s pretty much what NATO does when shit really hits the fan.
AzzuThere is no way to invade you.
Your military is 37% of the whole world. It would require literally you vs the whole rest of the world, and even then with you being a literal island, an invasion would probably still not be possible because of the supply line advantage.
They don’t have to invade us and that’s not what I’m suggesting. They go straight to Musk and Trump’s strongholds and arrest them. Much like what happened in South Korea, except with outside forces, since ours seem to be neutered. Anyone who says this isn’t what NATO does, doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
Also, Trump and Musk are NOT popular with the military right now. There have been active duty service members at protests, one had to be carried out of a confirmation hearing, multiple are uploading videos saying what an insult it was that J6ers were pardoned, and so on. I would hazard a guess that whoever did this with the flag is also military or closely aligned with the miliary, because it isn’t exactly common knowledge. So if the time comes, I don’t think many will be rushing to defend the masters of this coup.
CrimeDadMaybe President Xi really could save us.
In 2016, people thought that Trump was the problem. That if Trump left, we could have civility restored to the electoral process. Defeating Trump won’t solve the problem because he isn’t it - it is the electorate. The voters need to SEE what will happen when this or that occur.
Deport all the immigrants, see the damage that brings, then bring them back with legal protections this time.
Cancel all the science, see how far behind we get, then bring it back with all the funding to make the next moonshot.
Get rid of all fogien aid, watch as our global power dimishes, the vote to bring it back with a clear and true purpose other than empire building.
The people don’t know WHY these things are important, and are unwilling to listen or learn. Thus, the only teacher is to experience. But to quote Trump: “There will be some pain” when doing it.
I don’t disagree with you and I would love it if people had to experience the consequences of their poor decisions and learn hard lessons that they’ve been evading for years. The problem is that millions of innocents are and will be caught in the crosshairs. This is a matter of life or death for many people who did not vote for him and it is unconscionable to allow all those people to die just so a bunch of loud racist hillbillies with lead poisoning can learn a lesson.
Fair, I just see no other way of swaying minds without consequences. We tried 4 years of shielding people from Trump’s baser urges, and we ended with thousands of people dying each day to COVID. Then 4 year later THEY VOTED HIM BACK IN.
They don’t even know what DEI means until oh hey, they’re out on disability for months+ for surgery in their physically demanding job and need help because their arm or whatever doesn’t work and/orthey’ll be out for surgery for months and/or SSDI rejects their claim. The willful ignorance and just plain ignorance is really sad.
There are already millions caught in the crosshairs. Its not a choice between doing nothing and saving lives, and doing something and losing them. We are losing them both ways but by doing nothing people evade social responsibility.
Dead on. This is a snowballing shit storm building since Reagan. Probably earlier. Trump is only a foothold, a useful idiot. He’s popular with the Boomers and knows how to work them and use the language. They even refer to him as “their boy.” Meanwhile he’s “making deals” e.g. pumping the dicks of other corpos like Xi and Putin and pretending to get them on board even when he fails with the smarter leaders while his little weasels dismantle shit in the background.
This is spot on.
Just as we saw with Boomers in the UK, who happily threw their country off an economic cliff with Brexit, America’s Boomers are equally feckless and unrelenting.
People over the age of 70 should lose the right to vote and just focus on being old and retired. It’s absurd that to have people constantly voting to chop down the tree whose shade they will never live to enjoy.
To be fair, Borris was the first American born British PM. So, you could still blame us.
tetris11Will they actually see it though is the question, or will they greedily accept the new set of lies as the world burns around them?
100%. Even after he leaves office, is anyone confident that the country will collectively go “well that was embarrassing, anyway, back to normality now!”
SLVRDRGNHow, at this point, could anyone assume that in 4 years Trump will just “leave the office”?
TehdastehdasIf voting will be fixed as Trump promised, a different puppet could be installed. This would increase the appearance of legitimacy.
The nonvoters might learn, but not the brainwashed consuming Fox News - they’ll blame the left once again.
The Canadians I talk to are either furiously pissed off and lashing out at me like I’m about to annex them myself or dead ass silent. This is a weird fucking timeline to say the least.
People keep saying this, but WHO?
Who are you talking about?
Who is this “somebody” you keep talking about showing up to save us?
Look, nobody is coming to save us, and asking somebody else to risk harm on yourself behalf is selfish.
If we object, it isn’t on somebody else to show up and save us, it’s on us.
If you aren’t willing to make the moves yourself, who the fuck are you to ask somebody else to.
Nobody is coming to save us, folks. It’s either us, me and you, or it’s nobody.
I don’t trust anyone enough for something to actually be done. Buy guns, buy 3d Printers, learn to make clothing, prepate your homesteads, prepare for isolation and be ready to lean on and support your neighbors.
Be the best you can be, make good relationships with those around you, and brace yourselves . It’s the only thing I can realistically think I alone can do for me, my family, and my community.
Is it a doomer view? I don’t think so. I like to have hope that my vote can fix something. I like to think my protests are heard and considered. But at the end of the day I have to focus on doing what I actually can.
I have a similar, albeit slightly less doomer, view currently. Focus on the safety and good of your community and loved ones, and remember that nothing is guaranteed to us. Do the necessary good steps like voting and protesting, but don’t be naïve enough to think that’s the whole of necessary action or a magic bullet to solve the problems. Do the good, but focus on the real workable action in your direct sphere of influence. Cheers.
Isolation really is an American mentality but it’s not particularly great for actually striking out. If you want to atop things from getting worse Collectivist activities and thinking is your best chance.
Reach out to the people who are already doing stuff. If you have a union or a political action group, go to it and start organizing. If someone has already started organizing then join them and be subordinate. Find people who understand democratic systems and collective action and offer your time. In fighting is the luxury of peacetime so learn to do that which is not your own exact process. Set aside differences and petty disagreement and work to mutual benefit.
Learn the Roberts rules of order or how your local and state governments function and utilize channels that exist. If you have a gardening or farmers market society reach out and looking at replacing your lawn for gardens and pool with like minded neighbours. Learn first aid and stock a kit. Train your body to be fit and learn self defense. Prepare yourself to be disobedient on someone else’s behalf.
Your votes at a federal level are no longer being considered but will your protest be toothless? If you are feeling doom, reach out and find hope in solidarity.
I agree!!! When I said isolation I meant more in the place where you are, build yourself up so when your neighbors need help they can lean on you for a bit while they set themselves up when things start to collapse.
The answer is not a cabin in the woods, but to make yourself as ready as you can be so you can help others so they can get to a position where they can help you.
itslilithThe cavalry’s not coming. It’s just us.
This is specifically what NATO is designed for, to help when there are 3rd party threats to member nations. We have both made threats to other member nations (Canada, Greenland) and are currently experiencing a coup in our own country, which is a 3rd party threat if I’ve ever heard one.
I am doing everything I can, but as a private citizen my options are extremely limited. What am I supposed to do in response to an international distress signal?
Look, you’ve got good intentions and the right general idea, but you’re not thinking this through.
Yes, the US is genuinely under attack staging a genuine coup right now, I’m not going to deny that. This is reality, this is happening.
But, unfortunately the American people are largely letting it happen. Real talk, if NATO tried to step in right now right via force, while correct, there is just no way that wouldn’t be perceived as an enormous overstep and effectively a hostile action on the part of NATO against a sovereign nation.
The reality is perception matters. It’s one thing if NATO steps in to stabilize a country that is being shaken apart with unrest and sounding the cries of outrage against tyranny - that’s easy optics for NATO to swoop in as the heroic liberator. But until we’re at that point, genuinely at that point, NATO is handicapped and any action they take is just throwing gas on the fire.
Again, it comes down to me and you.
Uriel238 [all pronouns]Oh they’ll come.
The US will have to go to war to keep down unrest. Whether Trump makes good on Canada / Greenland / Poland, the world will have to form a coalition against us, and it’s likely China will take the lead.
There will be Chinese bombers over Washington just as there were Russian and American bombers over Berlin. Not that we’ll be around to enjoy it, and those that remain will suffer as collaborators (whether they were or not).
We really don’t want to let it get there. But then we really didn’t want it to get here, and we knew in the early aughts with George W. Bush’s administration this is where we were headed if someone didn’t chance course. Obama, who promised to change course, did not.
I hope that you are incorrect, but fear that you are closer to correct than not, sadly.
You did choose this through decades of inaction, apathy, laziness, fecklessness. The world kept telling you that something was wrong in your “democracy” and the canned response was, “Haha, not in America - land of the free, home of the brave!” Then one day, with your rights stripped away you all finally say, “Not my fault!” It was, it is, and it will be solely Americans fault. And the longer it takes you to own it and fix-your-shit the more costly it’s going to be. As always. Imagine how much easier it would have been had you just mass protested after Citizen’s United, for example.
No one is coming to save you. The people who have been standing up to fix it couldn’t motivate the rest of you to get off the couch. My suggestion is to stop parroting excuses like, “We are too exhausted to do it”, and do it. Look to history for examples on how, and for what real exhaustion looks like. The first steps are usually meeting with organizations already doing something and ask what you need to do.
“But I’ll lose my job!” If 50% of the country loses there job then there will be a lot of job opportunities. “But my family!” Ok, then sit there and let your fear keep you from action. Keep waiting for someone to save you. Watch how bad it gets as Americas military falls under the control of a facist regime. Watch as your educational system becomes even more of an indoctrination engine. I wonder which, if any, heinous act by your government finally motivates you enough. The kids-in-cages wasn’t enough, I wonder what could be? Possibly nothing.
“Home of the brave”. Fucking ha ha ha. “Land of the free”. Sure. I have no sympathy for people just waking up now. Where the fuck have you been?
JoeBigelowIf I lose my job how am I supposed to heat my house, feed myself and my wife, or treat my chronic illness? Employers don’t look kindly on job abandonment, especially to go protest the thing businesses stand for…
Surely there will be waves of protestors being kicked out on the streets with their families, left to starve in ditches with nothing they can do.
I apologize to American readers that I was not able to summarize my response into a witty, 30-second sound clip. I see these assumptions made in your response:
a) the only thing you can do is protest. b) you will have to protest during your work schedule. c) all employers will fire you for job abandonment if you protest. d) no employers are equally concerned with the downward spiral that is your country. e) even with the mass job loses due to job-abandoning protesters you will not be able to easily find another job. f) no one is doing anything already you can help with. g)your job/health coverage will be fine as things escalate if you do do anything. h) no one in your position has found a way to contribute. i) no need to look at the situation or ask questions because you no you can do nothing. i) history shows that the safest bet for you and your country is to sit there and do nothing.
The reason Americans don’t have the ability to see through flimsy talking points is b/c your educational system is shit, tbh. We told you this too, every year. They are ranked. ie. we put them in numbered order from best (#1) to worst. Maybe you would have heard about it if you stopped yelling about how America is number #1 all the time. Spoilers: They aren’t number #1 in education. Clearly.
I don’t have the energy or patience to dismantle each possible excuse every American can come up to justify their inaction. They are #1 at that. So the simpler approach is from my initial response: find the people already doing something in your area and ask what you need to do. Do this instead of coming up with reasons not to do it. Do it as an act of faith in your country that you can do something. Do it as an act of freedom and bravery. Dare to do the impossible, like skipping your internet browsing time, to get in touch with people who are doing something. Read books about the sacrifices previous generations made for you to have the chance to sit and post on a non-censored platform like Lemmy. If internet posts can stopped facist governments the you can rely on us non-Americans to get the job done. Unlike us foreigners, you still have the best chance to turn this around.
Also, if you manage to waddle to meet up with some like minded individuals do post briefly here telling other Americans that it’s actually not impossible. They are an obstinate people living on the southern border of my country. And although I enjoy ridiculing their weaknesses I would prefer to celebrate their successes, as has been our tradition until very recently.
Ahh, so you aren’t even American. How is your opinion relevant then?
Because they are a Canadian and your dumbass president keeps trying to start the process of annexation. Do you have any idea how angry folk up here have become?
We are a tiny country in terms of people and a massive one in terms of land. We cannot legally participate in your systems of government in a meaningful way but we have always been effected by US political decisions and the lack of co-ordinated resistance nessisary from it’s citizens to fix the issues that affect all of us. We’ve been Cassandra warning you of what doom is about to befall us all and so often we’ve been dismissed.
I have compassion that you guys honestly didn’t want this. That this was a co-ordinated attack on your freedoms.
But I am also angry that it was slacktivist feel good measures of defiance that was the go to for so many on the left when a lot of folk on the right were using the system against you directly because finding the way to apply and lobby and interface with the system directly gets poo pooed as having to deal with and act like a Democrat…but is how the system is designed to function.
The truth is that other countries can’t help you. The only legal interface we have is through proper channels because there are bodies of law and military systems that keep us in check from interference. Technically your country hasn’t tripped the switch where we can directly meddle because that would mean a war during which we would need be defending because we have a total citizen count only slightly larger than California.
You have no such restrictions. You can use sabotage, soft resistance, legal avenues, press to leave the union, show up at your municipal and state governments with petitions, organize into actual milltias like your own constitutional documents say is a good thing for when your country had gone rogue. Your founders were edgy mistrustful bastards who designed your country with the idea that it might need to be overthrown. None of this is easy. Up here a lot of people are preparing - taking relevant coursework, getting firearm licencing and training proficiency, working with aid programs to assist refugees and using measures that change our behaviour, sometimes at personal cost to future plans or to pocketbooks.
You can ignore Canadian and Mexican voices in this squabble. Let’s face it, we’re used to it as most of your discourse likes to pretend we don’t exist. But everybody gets an opinion here and we are relevant… Because your country will crush us with the combined weight of individual inaction eventually.