OBJECTION!"China is the future, do you agree?"
Cowbee [he/they]Looks like I was dead-on, haha.
Tbh, I was shocked. Much as I’m sympathetic towards China, but I still usually look at it through a lens of realpolitik, like, “Of course they’re vying for dominance like everyone else, but at least they’re doing it through economic development instead of wars, and it’s better if there are two major powers instead of one.” Maybe that cynical perspective is more realistic, and maybe XHS users aren’t a representative sample of all Chinese people, but still, the fact that so many of the replies were so hopeful and internationalist was genuinely moving to me.
Well, you’re correct that XHS isn’t the general population of China, it skews middle-high income, so you aren’t getting the full picture. However, from what I’ve read from many younger Chinese political activists and analysts is that as China is now heavily industrialized, there is a sense of moving out of the over-ambitious optimism of the previous generations to a more grounded, educated, realistic optimism that is genuinely more hopeful as a consequence of its grounding.
China has libs. China has problems. China has struggles. But, by virtue of its position and strategy, the people also take on a generally internationalist character. “Let a hundred flowers bloom,” Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is a prediction, more than a description. It’s a prediction of Socialism with Ugandan Characteristics, Canadian, Brazilian, etc. That gives a sense of their overall attitude, IMO.
As much as we might criticize the whole, “End of History” idea, I feel like the 90’s was the last time Americans had anything like that kind of optimism. There was a feeling that we were entering a new age of international cooperation, and although I was only a child that was something I really believed in. But we soon found new conflicts to be embroiled in a the dream has died and was proven to be foolish and naive, and now everyone across the political spectrum is highly cynical.
I’m sure that there are many cynical people in China too, but I can hardly remember the last time I saw someone who wasn’t cynical when it comes to politics. Whether or not it’s naive, it hits me on an emotional level.
The good thing about China is that they have a lot of reason to be hopeful, due to many massive improvements in the last century, skyrocketing in the last decade. USians largely still envision 90s China, and are having that image shattered.
ERROR: Earth.exe has crashedDamn, they blocked Tor Browser.
I went to Fennec with uBlock on and VPN enabled (privacy reasons), the first thing I see is a download attempt of the 小红书 .apk file. I tap X, and it does it again. Damn, seem like Reddit all over again. 🤦♂️
Also, they require a +86 phone number for registration. 🤔 Not a fan of that. Its like Facebook + region locking. Well I guess it make sense… too many TikTok refugees lol.
I had to change to user agent to windows. The comments are pretty chill, unlike some other Chinese sites. I don’t see any “MAGA” type comments like you would see on twitter.
Edit: Hmm my webpage only shows like 10 comments, then stops showing… 🤔
NateYou can register with any number, it just defaults to +86
I think it’s pretty clear that despite Trump’s attempts to revitalize US manufacturing, the US won’t be able to outpace China’s industrial growth even if they hard pivot. China is, like it or not, almost certainly the next Global Hegemon as the US’ grip on the world is falling. Western Europe won’t be able to oppose it either.
I think Chinese citizens are generally hopeful for their country, but more than anything I think most of their citizens would want everyone to advance. I don’t think any doubt that China will surpass the US.
I want the mandate of heaven to come to all of us.
Sir_KevinIn many ways, China already has surpassed the US.
For sure. However, the PRC is still a developing countrt, while the US is a declining Empire. The US has farther to fall and China further to rise, especially in the next 1-2 decades.
the future in neo-colonialism? definitely
Can you elaborate?
Belt and Road Initiative, China owning most of the cobalt reserves and refining resources that oftentimes rely on enslaved child labor, anti-Black discrimination inside Chinese enclaves in Africa (1) (2), mandating Mandarin in Ugandan schools, with Kenya and South Africa making it optional
Can you elaborate on how BRI is Imperialism? Further, learning mandarin as a second language in schooling isn’t the same as forcing everyone to speak it, Spanish is required learning in many US schools and it isn’t a form of Mexican imperialism. I’d also like to see a source on the child labor in the cobalt mines.
The racial discrimination is terrible, no doubt, and it needs to be worked on and fixed. However, this doesn’t seem to be something the PRC is pushing so much as individual racists. I am hopeful that that situation will improve especially.
There are many arguments against China being Imperialist, from Vijay Prashad. Here’s an excerpt from a sepatate article, a quick 9 minute read:
In a 2005 presentation to the Congressional U.S.-China Commission, U.S. State Department official Princeton Lyman assessed how China’s model of socialist state loans don’t serve the function of profit:
“China utilizes a variety of instruments to advance its interest in ways that western nations can only envy. Most of China’s investments are through state-owned companies, whose individual investments do not have to be profitable if they serve overall Chinese objectives. Thus the representative of China’s state-owned construction company in Ethiopia could reveal that he was instructed by Beijing to bid low on various tenders, without regard for profit. China’s long term objective in Ethiopia is in access to future natural resource investments, not in construction business profits.”
Despite recent claims that China has been using its companies to engage in neo-colonialism throughout Africa, the situation Lyman assessed has continued to be the case throughout the last fifteen years. As I’ve mentioned in past writings, China’s investments do not meet the definition of neo-colonialism; Chinese enterprises help the job markets abroad rather than only employing Chinese workers, China hasn’t been engaging in “land grabs” in Africa, and China isn’t working to trap African nations in debt. In accordance with China’s not engaging in regime change, China has also never favored any government for its form or ideology.
I’m really glad to hear that in classic ML fashion, you know better than Ugandans themselves what does or doesn’t constitute colonialism. I recommend actually watching the TikTok video from the Ugandan activist I linked you that already explains how Mandarin is erasing indigenous languages in favor of facilitating Chinese exploitation of local resources.
Believe it or not, Spanish is also a colonial language. It’s pretty well known in any history book that it was used to enact cultural genocide on indigenous people all across Turtle Island. Indigenous people in Latin America have the “choice” of assimilating into Spanish culture or face poverty, starvation and genocide by white Latinos.
lmao imagine unironically linking the qiao collective, the mouthpiece of the CCP, as a credible source. I was wondering how long until the .ml brainwashing chip activates 🤭
here’s an even quicker read:
The University of California, Irvine report stated that the Qiao Collective posts “positive, often revisionist perspectives about Chinese politics.” That report stated that Qiao Collective claims that the “West’s perceptions of China as a human rights violator are actually the opposite; China is benevolent in helping marginalized people.” 1
The UC Irvine report stated that the Qiao Collective is particularly sympathetic with regard to how China treats the Uyghur people. 1 On Aug. 31, 2022, the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights released a report stating that the “Chinese government’s rights violations against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang ‘may constitute … crimes against humanity.’” 5
The left-of-center Human Rights Watch stated that since 2017, the Chinese government has carried out “a widespread and systematic” attack against the Uyghur people that included mass detention, torture, religious persecution, separation of families, forced labor and sexual violence. 5
The UC Irvine report stated that the Qiao Collective “assert[s]” that re-education camps do not exist and the camps were built to “deradicalize” extremists so they can get proper training to live on their own. UC Irvine’s report stated that Qiao claimed the camps teach Uyghurs to “better function in the economy,” learn technical skills, and they are allowed to go home a couple times per week to see their families.
Qiao Collective - InfluenceWatch
The Qiao Collective is a media outlet that supports the People’s Republic of China and tries to influence an English-speaking audience. Qiao Collective focuses its commentary on Chinese politics including Chinese labor, Hong Kong protests, and the treatment of the Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, according to a University of California, Irvine report. The UC Irvine […]
I watched it in full.
As for Spanish, I’m aware of its origins. I still don’t see how making it a mandatory second language in many US schools would imply Mexican or Spanish colonization of the US.
As for linking QiaoCollective, yes, I did. Is there a problem with reading sources that go against your narrative? Funny you link HRW, which is a US-based group founded explicitly to push anti-communism:
Some criticism:
In 2014, two Nobel Peace Laureates, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel and Mairead Maguire, wrote a letter signed by 100 other human rights activists and scholars criticizing HRW for its revolving-door hiring practices with the U.S. government, its failure to denounce the U.S. practice of extrajudicial rendition, its endorsement of the U.S. 2011 military intervention in Libya, and its silence during the 2004 Haitian coup d’état.[68]
In 2020, HRW’s board of directors discovered that HRW accepted a $470,000 donation from Saudi real estate magnate Mohamed Bin Issa Al Jaber, owner of a company HRW “had previously identified as complicit in labor rights abuse”, under the condition that the donation not be used to support LGBT advocacy in the Middle East and North Africa. After The Intercept reported the donation, it was returned, and HRW issued a statement that accepting it was “deeply regrettable”.[69]
HRW does good work sometimes, like calling out Israel for their genocide on Palestinians, but they were formed explicitly to target countries that dared stand against US hegemony. Read the actual, full UN report.
if you think criticizing the USSR is “anti-communist” that’s your own cultist complex to deal with. critiquing Russian imperialism has always and will be based, regardless if it’s hiding under the hammer and sickle or the Wagner logo
There’s meaningful critique of the USSR, yes. Being founded in the United States to serve as a watchdog over the Soviets at the height of the Cold War while the United States was licking its wounds after commiting untold masses of war crimes in Vietnam is the peak of hypocricy and purely exists to slander Communism. Moreover, the USSR was not Imperialist, it stood against Imperialism by supporting Cuba, China, Vietnam, Algeria, Palestine, Korea, and more liberate themselves from Imperialism and Colonialism.
do y’all ever get tired of the genocide denialism circlejerk? don’t you feel pathetic to do the job of Russia and China for free? at least get new material besides "X is anti-US, therefore X anti-imperialist and therefore communist ". it’s called being a tankie
The UN report says that while the camps may constitute crimes against humanity, they aren’t genocidal. The claims of genocide come from Adrian Zens, a far-right Christian Nationalist that, get this, believes he was given a mission from God to discredit China. US-based media spreads these as “claims” because there’s no punishment for spreading these claims, and if no evidence comes out of these crimes of excess then they can rely on having only reported “claims.” What Qiao Collective states is in line with the UN report and what the visitors China has invited from the Middle East to investigate back up.
As for the logical pretzel you created at the end, that’s just condescending. Many non-Communist groups are anti-US, like the Russian Federation, which is fully Capitalist. There are plenty of reasons to oppose the US without being Communist. However, there are AES states that go against the US as well.
Adrian as reprehensible as he might be is only circulating data that’s been leaked from Chinese Police databases full of thousands of pictures of Uyghurs in concentration camps.
bbc.co.uk/…/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detentio…
What Qiao Collective states is in line with the UN report and what the visitors China has invited from the Middle East to investigate back up.
you can’t have it both ways. if you wanna be a tankie at least don’t rely on western alligned monarchies to support your alternative facts.
middleeasteye.net/…/china-uyghurs-condemn-islamic…
the irony isn’t lost on me that you’re basing your genocide denialism on paid propaganda from government clerics going on supervised tours, who also support Israel in their genocide of Palestinians. also the irony that all tankies engaging in anti-Uyghur genocide denialism are simply regurgitating 9/11 “terrorist” propaganda but they like it this time because China lightly repackaged it, put a red bow on top and made it their official policy.
I support justice for Uyghurs because I follow Uyghur activists and academics, I couldn’t give a shit about Zenz. Unlike you, we don’t have a daddy fetish where we have to blindly follow a great leader.
there’s no such thing as socialist states. that’s just stalinist “communism in one country” fascist bs
Funny that you link the BBC, given their historical willingness to lie on the subject and continue to report the ludicrous 10,000 dead at Tian’anmen figure that was the sole claim of a British diplomat that fled the square before the PLA arrived, and later was confirmed to have been a fabrication. Hundreds died that day, maybe low thousands, not 10,000, yet the BBC both knows that and reports otherwise. BBC also got caught doctoring images to make China seem “depressing” that they swapped back after getting called out.
Either way, Zenz is a known liar, works for the “Victims of Communism” propaganda outlet, and was commisioned by the BBC to fight China, which he believes is the “Anti-Christ.” Moreover, he misrepresents numbers, such as 8% new IUD rates as 80% new IUD rates, to give an idea of forced steralization that doesn’t exist. As for XPF? Check out this-person-does-not-exist.com/en, then the glasses picture, xinjiangpolicefiles.org/…/20180515184435950_65312…, pretty damning. BBC recieved these photos straight from Zenz, a known liar. We know there are camps, either way, but Zenz is a serial liar and you trust him, why?
As for Socialism, I have no genuine clue what you mean by there not being able to be a Socialist state. Marx and Engels both believed in the necessity of a state until global communism is achieved and all property is collectivized, at which point there are no classes and thus no state, only administration. Moreover, it was Socialism in One Country, not Communism, which is necessarily global. Why am I unsurprised that you get basic facts wrong?
You don’t support Uyghurs, if you did you’d actually care enough to look into your sources.
davelI don’t know, will you ever get tired of US disinformation about Chinese local & federal government’s responses to the CIA-backed terrorist attacks in Xinjiang?
roux [they/them, xe/xem]If the US doesn’t fuck up it’s own demise and just dies peacefully, I can see that being the case.
But I think China would use their new powers to help lift other countries up instead of continuing to use the global south as a giant slave plantation like the US is doing.
I want the mandate of heaven to come to all of us.
I don’t really know anything about China, so I really can’t say.
It would be a good idea to learn a bit, I think, considering that they will play an increasingly large role on the global stage.
As an Indian, I think they seem more well-planned and more decent than recent USAmerica.
We have border issues, but I do respect them as I agree with their leftist view of reducing poverty and improving education.
We have border issues, but I do respect them as I agree with their leftist view of reducing poverty and improving education.
I would like to hope no one nation is the future. Replacing one global hegemony with another is not my idea of progress.
tetris11I’m onboard with Wales. Let Wales rule for a bit.
anon6789Oh my, I can’t even begin to imagine what a Texan or Creole Welsh accent would sound like if that was the international language! 😵💫
*sneezes* *snorts* *coughs* *clears throat* *yodelays*
I’m sorry, what was your question
In one sense, as a key component of the UK, they already had that chance somewhere between the years of 1600-ish to 1945-ish.
Heh, I think you’ve just pissed off Welsh/Irish/Scottish people with that sentiment.
I agree
未來屬於
😏
Don’t know why you’re lionizing anti-communist nationalists as the “true China.” The KMT were brutal nationalists, just because they preceded the Communists doesn’t make siding with far-right nationalists the answer. If the RoC were to capture the PRC, the people fearing China becoming an Empire would have their fears cemented in reality.
Taiwan/RoC is not currently ruled by the KMT though. (Nor is today’s KMT very comparable to what they were many decades ago)
The KMT is where the origins of RoC as “true China” come from. Outside of the KMT, there are no claims of the RoC as anything resembling a “legitimate heir to China,” only the KMT as the former rulers of the mainland. When someone says RoC is “true China,” they are lionizing the KMT and upholding its legitimacy over the Communist Party of China for governance of the mainland.
Calling the RoC “true China” without mentioning the KMT is silly, there’s no basis for that claim without upholding the KMT’s roots.
Or they may just be pushing back on the idea that the PRC has legitimate claim to the nation of Taiwan. People online like to say it because they know it upsets the PRC government. Basically, it asks the question, “What makes the PRC any more the “True China” than Taiwan?”
Truthfully, neither nation is “true China”, and neither are the nations that they were years ago. No one in Taiwan today holds any belief that the ROC government is the rightful government of the mainland in exile.
But Taiwan is unable to be widely recognized as a sovereign nation in its own right to this day because the government of the PRC is still sticking to the “manifest destiny” sort of idea that there is a single, ideal land of China rooted in its imperial legacy, which for some reason the current mainland government feels they have an obligation to claim.
Why do you think it upsets the people of the PRC to say that the RoC is “true China?” Do you think it might just have to do with the fact that the far-right nationalists that used to rule China fled there after the Communist revolution? Could it have anything to do with many people of China giving their lives to throw off the KMT?
the CCP was no less far right than the KMT during that era, exemplified by the many genocides they committed and continue to commit against ethnic minorities
Can you elaborate?
Oh, look, a paid shill. What, you think because you work for China instead of Russia that we won’t see what you’re doing? Get the fuck outta here.
What part of my comment indicates that I’m a “paid shill?” Recognizing history?
Lunarclassic blueanon
Uh-huh. I have friends in Hong Kong, so fuck off with your tankie bullshit. That mouth of yours is only good for two things: licking boots and fellating murderous autocrats. Quit using it to waste everyone’s time.
Anarchists Not Siding With the Bourgeois Imperial Compradors Challenge (Impossible)
Erika3sis [she/her, xe/xem]For whatever it’s worth, despite never formally studying Chinese, I managed to read both the Chinese sentences, albeit with the wrong tones. Like to be fair I have studied Japanese, and I am generally a bit of a weirdo with a knack for this sort of thing — but I do still have to wonder if more people are just going to start casually picking up hanzi just from exposure like I have, as China becomes more prominent. I could certainly see it happening.
“China is the future” is a bit of a vague question, though. I absolutely think that the USA is currently crumbling as the world’s hegemon — interestingly enough, the USA’s flag actually has stars on it to represent a “new constellation”, using the constellations in the sky as an allegory for the rise and fall of nations; so it indeed seems like the fifty-star constellation is beginning to fall beyond the horizon, as a new five-star constellation rises.
This being said, I don’t think China’s behavior as future hegemon will be the same as the USA’s current behavior as present hegemon. I don’t necessarily know what to expect from the future, though, so it’s probably best to prepare for all possibilities until we gain a clearer understanding of the situation.
Also, we can’t really know and judge China as the world leader, as they’re not yet.
As soon as you are on top, your behaviour might change. Both for the better, but most likely for the worse. (see US)
Also, we have to remember that China still needs all western partners to keep up their production. They are still a manufacturing country.
As soon as you are on top, your behaviour might change.
It might, it might not. America’s behavior didn’t change; from the start they’ve been aggressive and expansionist, the scope just grew as they became more powerful.
China’s been growing rapidly for decades while very seldomly acting militarily outside their borders. They don’t seem to have expansionist goals outside those declared over 70 years ago (ie Taiwan) and have even negotiated down on border conflicts. It’s not impossible but it’d be strange for China to make a complete about-turn on their stated policy of non-intervention.
China still has a concentration camp and invaded Tibet. If they keep on doing what they’re used to, it will still be bad.
They also support dictatorships like North Korea, and that’s also not a good look.
Then there’s the whole silencing of Hong Kong, and I don’t now enough to say what happened there, so I won’t. Just know something did.
The re-education program in Xinjiang seems to have ended already and fulfilled its stated purpose. Tibet had slavery and was semi-feudalist, while the Dalai Lama owned slaves and was working with the CIA. Life expectancy dramatically improved along with many other metrics like literacy rates once the PLA ended slavery and feudalism. For the DPRK, they maintain trade relations with them, the most sanctioned country on the planet and one of the most heavily bombed. HK was a British Colony to be returned to the PRC, and now most Hong Kong residents would rather be integrated with the Chinese economy.
I think you need to investigate more of these topics if you’re going to list them off as points.
China hasn’t had a war in over 40 years.
What do you call Tibet then. I know they couldn’t fight back that much, but it’s a literal invasion.
Tibet was recognised by every country on the planet as sovereign Chinese territory, both then and today.
ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who wasremovedd and then had her nose sliced away.23
Earlier visitors to Tibet commented on the theocratic despotism. In 1895, an Englishman, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the populace was under the “intolerable tyranny of monks” and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lama’s rule as “an engine of oppression.” At about that time, another English traveler, Captain W.F.T. O’Connor, observed that “the great landowners and the priests… exercise each in their own dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal,”
Liberating people from inhumanly cruel and merciless theocratic overlords is good, actually.
Quotes from “Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth” by Micheal Parenti. The whole essay is quite good and not very long. forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=88773
Putting aside everything else, approximately when do you believe that happened?
I was confusing the actual war with a later protest against China because of Tibet happening maybe 10 years ago.
My mistake.