Proton is dead (for me). Let's collect and discuss alternatives! ✊🛡

https://lemmy.world/post/24312612

Proton is dead (for me). Let's collect and discuss alternatives! ✊🛡 - Lemmy.World

In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇 Always try to provide: -Server location (jurisdiction) -Governance -Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency -User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8) -Pricing and links If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too. #ProtonExodus Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116 [https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116] Edit:typo

You,…are being a spaz,…that’s all it is. An immature brat for no reason other than someone has a different view from what you believe.

for some of us, particularly queer, black, trans, women, immigrant, and indigenous people, the stakes are higher than “i don’t personally agree with the ceo of proton.” our lives are being endangered both by the new admin’s policies as well as the emboldened cult associated with it.

this is not a “spaz” (offensive term by the way, so thanks for that) or brat move. it’s simply us doing what people always say to do: voting with our wallets. this move is bad for a lot of people. i’m thrilled for you that it’s not bad, but i ask you to see us saying it is bad not as your enemy, but as people who are vulnerable asking you to take a longer look at the bigger picture

You could look at infomaniak, but I didn’t have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.

EDIT: Infomaniak is on F-Droid!

EDIT EDIT: Infomaniak is only available in Europe! Infomaniak is only available with a European phone number, so using a VPN won’t help! 🙁👎

🚀 Sovereign Cloud Service Provider - Hosting, Domains & Collaborative Tools

Control your data governance with an independent cloud. Solutions hosted in the heart of Europe, designed to protect your confidentiality.

Finding a provider that has all of Proton's apps is going to be toug

Nobody should be using any provider as one stop shop... That's how we got cooked by Google and Apple the first time folks.

Unbundle, mix and match...

Yeah it auck Proton did this but if you only got one proton service, it is eaiser to either do nothing or switch it.

I agree! I don’t use Proton’s VPN or their password manager for that reason. The equivalents I had in place already were fine and I didn’t feel the need to switch over everything, just some things.

Wow!

Of all companies, this is one I didn’t expect.

Damn.

the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital

What’s insane is that didn’t Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?

Yes, they did: proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation

Proton is transitioning towards a non-profit structure | Proton

To ensure our mission always comes first, Proton is transitioning to a non-profit structure and formalizing our promise of people before profits.

Proton
Uhg. How much longer until it’s more viable to self host…
I will prefer to pay Zoho Mail instead of supporting Proton Mail. I was just holding into them because of their support to privacy and security but the lack of support to Linux and now this. I will move on.
Sridhar Vembu - Wikipedia

Its actually worse since Zoho CEO have more control compared to Andy Yen’s 1/5 of the voice on the board, as a non-profit organization.
Uggghhh I just upped for two years. Fucking asshats are all caving to the orange fuckhead. Probably off to Europe somewhere.
I believe they offer refunds if you cancel within 30 days.

I don’t use proton, but I would be grateful if you could share a link on how Proton sided with fascists.

Also, I use Mullvad for VPN and I host my own email

I dont know of any alternatives but I will use Zoho Mail for now with my own domain. As they are cheap and reliable. I been using them for my business and it is great.
Tuta and Mailbox.org allow custom domains.

My personal recommendations:

uberspace.de

  • Server location (jurisdiction): Germany
  • Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency: About-Page
  • User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8): 6
  • Pricing: Based on solidarity, but recommend minimum is 5 € per month

www.hostsharing.net

  • Server location (jurisdiction): Germany
  • Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency: well, you own part of hostsharing if you use it (collective-ownership)
  • User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8): 6
  • Pricing: 64 € onetime payment + 10 € per month (cooperative)

Other recommendations:

  • mailbox.org, systemli.org, riseup.net, posteo.de (as far as I know all of them are located in Germany)

Uberspace

Excuse my ignorance, but why is Germany a good place for privacy vs proton’s Sweden?

And also eg, versus a non EU nation ?

40 Years of German Privacy Movement | Digitalcourage

Why is there such a great awareness for data protection in Germany? What are the reasons for this? And why do we – as Digitalcourage – stand up for privacy?

TLDR: The Gestapo and Stasi

“uh uh. you aren’t doing that shit to me again”

meanwhile, on the other side of the atlantic

“spy on me daddy”

US never had fascism, so they’re experimenting and learning the hard way
oh man. we’re the og fascists. our policies inspired european fascism. we’ve done all the key components of a fascist regime before: the forced labor, the death camps, the mass surveilance, the overt militarism, the desperate need to expand and get rid of the people who were already there

Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.

The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he’s not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.

There’s nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:

  • Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
  • Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
  • Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true

Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It’s controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.

PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything. It’s the personal opinion of the CEO that’s at issue. It’s a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.

I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.
Link to Mastodon thread: mastodon.social/…/113833073219145503
Just puked a little after reading that.
Here’s what I don’t get: if the leadership at Proton believes this shit, why share it on social media at all? It clearly isn’t going to make anyone in the left happy. Are they trying to capture porn-loving MAGA?

Archives in case they delete it:

web.archive.org/web/…/113833073219145503

archive.is/lBQd8

Text copy of their post:

___ > Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation. > >Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote. > >At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance. > >By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand. > >Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost. > >Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.

Proton (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation. Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote. At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance. 1/2

Mastodon
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side. The republicans suck and are only going after tech until tech bows down to them (like zuck has been doing) but the post isn’t really outrageous or worse than the first tweet

This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side.

Are you trying to argue that R is less entrenched with rich oligarchs and corporate money than the Dems? Because I musk object if so.

No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers

Republicans have always been worst and still are.

No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers

Well on this specific detail we agree entirely!

Can you screenshot it? The link doesn’t load
Nothing that OP said is false, so we can’t characterize this post as “misinformation.” The CEO of Proton is, as a matter of empirical fact, dangerously delusional. The Republican Party is not interested in antitrust issues let alone protecting “the little guy.” They’re interested in corporate subservience, the paradigm of all fascist regimes. I’m not sure why you would feel comfortable with a service whose CEO is this childishly naive.

I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.

This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.

I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.

Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?

Both parties are the big business parties. Big business is “donating” (bribing) Trump now like all big businesses have done to both parties since citizens united passed.
  • It isn’t misinformation.

  • Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn’t covered by “opinion”. No normalizing nazis. It’s such a low bar. He couldn’t clear it.

  • He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn’t being violated.

  • This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.

    Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I’m not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.

    You have to self host if you use synching
    i wanted to move my google stuff to Proton this year as a Backup for my self hosted stuff. Shame, seems like I need to put a little more time into managing my self hosted stuff
    is tuta the new pick for custom domain email?

    Mailbox.org is another good one.

    EDIT: Apparently they recycle addresses, so if you ever cancel your subscription with them, someone could eventually sign up with your old address and receive any mail from places you didn’t switch over to a new address, which is concerning.

    I was considering them until I found out they allow the re-registration of previously used addresses. If you don’t log in for a year or so, someone else can take over your address and potentially gain access to various accounts you’ve registered with it.

    Interesting. Not having this fucked me on tuta.

    I hadnt signed into tuta for some years, then I learned they killed my account. I had another service tied to that account, which wouldn’t let me login without an OTP sent to the email on file. I tried to re-register the account on tuta, but they refused. So I lost access to both accounts :(

    FYI, Posteo will never delete your account, and will still let you log in and receive emails even if you stop paying (you won’t be able to send emails until you pay the $1 a month again).

    They apparently will only recycle your address if you explicitly delete your account yourself.

    Wasn’t aware of that, thanks for the heads up.
    Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.
    Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.

    If this wasn’t enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it’s harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.

    Better go with one that’d specialized for each service you need…

    Posteo, Mailbox.org, and Tuta are all good alternatives.

    EDIT: Mailbox.org will eventually recycle your address if you stop using their service. Something to be aware of.

    Before you decide to go back to Google or close your account, keep in mind that Proton became a non profit organization with the main mission of protecting your privacy. And as a non profit, they’re not trying to profit off of you in any way.

    Going back to Google is the worst solution you can use. Remember that Google donated $1 million to Trump’s inauguration fund. Google also doesn’t care about your privacy. On the contrary, they’re selling your data and using it against you.

    While the Proton CEO may be a nut case, he’s only praising the choice that Trump made as the candidate for the antitrust department. While that’s understandably stupid since I don’t believe Trump is going up stick up for the little guy now that he’s got Musk and Zuck in his pocket, at least he didn’t actively donated and enabled Trump either personally or through his platform and spread misinformation.

    Think about it.

    At least with proton, the fact that you’re different, that you’re 2SLGBTQ+, is safe. Or at least substantially safer than Google.

    They have doubled down officially with their official Mastodon account mastodon.social/…/113833073219145503 I therefore consider this official opinion of Proton. Focussing on one aspect and completely ignoring the bigger picture of a luming fascist period in the most militarized economy of the world is just inacceptable. Proton just could have kept their mouth shut, but they decided not to.
    This is extremely disappointing. :(

    Why are there so many responses like this, saying not to go back to Google? The OP didn’t even mention Google as an option they were considering. I’ve seen zero discussion in any of the other posts around the fediverse where people have expressed any desire to use Google because of this. Why would anyone think that users who had already moved to Proton would find Google acceptable as an alternative right now?

    This just feels like you’re trying to discourage actual conversation about alternatives by acting like the only options are Proton or Google, so we all ought to shut up and sit down.

    Also, if you think merely becoming a non-profit means a corporation can never exploit people and isn’t interested in making money off of it’s customers, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

    Because I looked at the discussion threads for this post and I saw a few early comments where people mentioned they would go back or stick with Google.

    I’m not trying to shut down or discourage any discussion. Just pointing out to the people who said they’d go back that it’s not the best solution.

    Safer.

    Well, they handed out activists’ metadata in the past, for the French authorities. In their position of an e2ee provider who controls both ends as a default, they are in a position where the can fuck people over. This is exactly what Snowden described as someone pointing a gun at you while saying “Relax, I am not gonna use it against you.”

    So much for safety.

    Ah, and my original point was: it is either safe or unsafe, the word saf_er_ means nothing during a genocide.

    Contents of email are safe.

    But assume IPs are compromised.

    OpenAI was also a non-profit until a few months ago
    No, Proton actually just went from being a company to a non profit recently for the purpose of remaining a privacy focused organization whose mission won’t change.