return2ozmaLeaders of 'Uncommitted' and 'Abandon Harris' movements reflect on Trump's victory and early moves
PugJesusMisner said it was a difficult decision to vote for Trump. He said the point of the Abandon Harris campaign was to punish the Democrats for supporting Israel during its war in Gaza, which the campaigners view as a genocide, and he hopes the Trump campaign will be more willing to negotiate with group leaders.
Vindication feels awful here, honestly.
“I think the biggest problem is that your messaging to Arab Americans can’t just be ‘Trump’s a fascist, Trump is Hitler. Big, scary orange man, vote for me.’ Part of being a part of the American political system is being able to separate yourself from your opponent and lay out a better vision. And she did not do that,” Abdelrahman said.
Negative messaging works, as much as people like to pretend it doesn’t.
If you saw a literal fascist openly declaring fascist things, and your response to the milquetoast opposition is “Well, you’re not seperated enough, stylistically”, you’re not much more than a fascist enabler.
In what fucking way is “Not fascism” not a better vision than “Literal fucking fascism”?
“She could have at least called for a ceasefire,” Khan said. (Harris repeatedly called for a ceasefire during her campaign, including during her Democratic convention speech.)
Ah, it’s just like being on Lemmy!
“Even in politics, humanity should be the first and the foremost thing to to be respected, to be valued, right? And [the] Democratic Party clearly, clearly, for an entire year showed us they do not care about human life,” Khan said. “They do not care about their constituents, how they feel about the massacre.”
Ah, yes, humanity is the first and foremost thing to be respected, which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote. Peak humanity.
theonlytruescotsmanGay people aren’t more important than Muslims
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
It would seem that they are considerably less important than virtue signaling to Muslims for many voters, yes.
Ah so we all need to respect your views, but when it comes to not wanting to support genocide label it virtue signaling.
Liberals are so pathetic. I’m sure that condescending everyone you meet will win you tons of votes.
You all spend so much time chasing fascist voters and then act so surprised when the fascists are suddenly legitimized by society.
Flying SquidWhat I am not surprised about, at all, is that all the “don’t vote for her” people like yourself (apparently) are now claiming they are not in any way responsible for a fascist getting elected. It’s everyone else’s fault, but the person who literally said to not vote for the only other option than the fascist shares none of the blame.
And if that isn’t you, you’re defending people who share the blame. Which, I would say, falls into the camp of ‘pathetic’ as well.
Nah man, fascism is already here. If you, me, and the rest of the Democrats were willing to tolerate a genocide to keep a system enabling a genocide, then it can’t be denied. We weren’t delaying fascism, we just weren’t the current target of it and because of that, you couldn’t see it. We’re all fucked but it’s because of these exact attitudes that allowed dehumanization to be accepted.
I’m sorry… did you just suggest that queer and brown people deserve to be victims of a genocide because of Democrats?
What, no? Well, as much as you’re saying that Palestinians deserve to be victims of a genocide to protect LGBTQ people. Brown people are already being genocided btw.
Oh come on, Harris lost by a larger margin of all the Arab American voters combined. It’s foolish to blame her losing on this one community (who voted for her anyway). The community is suffering and you decide to add insult to this injury, as if we somehow were responsible and not the 70 million Trump voters.
Interesting how you decided I was talking about Muslim-Americans in one post and Arab-Americans in another post even though I was talking about neither group.
Also interesting how you seem to think Arab = Muslim and Muslim = Arab.
Nope. You said “people like yourself” and I was responding to that. You have no idea whether I’m Arab or not, and you may have inferred I’m Muslim because of my name or posting history, but you’re the one treating the groups as the same for this topic.
you’re the one treating the groups as the same for this topic.
Yet again, I’m still not talking about Muslim-Americans or Arab-Americans. So no, no I’m not. Because neither group is who I was talking about.
I know you want me to be talking about them, but I’m still not.
Ah so we all need to respect your views, but when it comes to not wanting to support genocide label it virtue signaling.
Not sure what else you’d call selling out queer folk to feel good about yourself.
But queer people domestically are apparently far less important than Muslims in another country.
But I look forward to the people who told me “there won’t be a genocide of queer people” telling me that the genocide isn’t happening.
They just shut put their hands over their eyes whenever I showed them this after all…
Sorry your support of genocide might now effect you
I have a long history here on Lemmy. Let’s see if you can find one single comment where I support genocide.
Oh not this again, the flying carpet fallacy. Majority of American Muslims support LGBT rights, but that doesn’t matter to you because you’re judging me based on people in another country, who speak a language I don’t. Do you also bash American Christians because Ugandans lynch gays? Or do you bash American Jews because Israelis are terribly rightwing and extremist?
Way to push away your political allies who have been on your side for decades.
Flying carpet fallacy
The "flying carpet" fallacy denotes the debating technique of inappropriately bringing up a stereotypical, racist, or exotic fantasy about the "Muslim world", in order to shift a conversation away from a topic with more local relevance. It often boils down to a matter of false equivalence, and can be an inappropriate accusation of tu quoque or attempt to claim two wrongs make a right. The blogger Jehanzeb Dar originally coined the term in an essay in 2010.[1][2] The flying carpet fallacy is an informal fallacy.
What are you even saying? I didn’t say anything about what American Muslims support. I wasn’t even talking about them.
I’m talking about what all the non-Muslims, many of whom never even talked to a Palestinian in their lives, said to not vote for Harris because of genocide, ignoring the fact that Trump was not only even more in favor of genocide of Palestinians than Harris, but also made his plans to implement domestic genocide very clear.
Because the important thing was their own self-righteousness.
Those people are not my political allies. Exactly the opposite. They’re the people who have participated in what is forcing me to flee the country for my queer child’s safety.
Also:
Or do you bash American Jews because Israelis are terribly rightwing and extremist?
You might take a look at my profile and see what communities I moderate and then think about asking me that question again.
It’s known as a rhetorical question. I was giving examples to show how stupid this double standard is, not that I was claiming you are bashing Jews. I can’t see your mod communities on mobile and frankly it’s not relevant.
You don’t have to be Muslim to be appalled by the carnage in Gaza or the rise of rightwing extremism now in charge of a nuclear armed state making aggressive wars on neighbors and oppressing minorities through continuous modern apartheid. Why are you so bent out of shape that this genocide shocked their conscience too? This wasn’t about self righteousness, it was about basic human morality; Biden actually spent his political capital and fought his own party and majority public opinion to accelerate Israel’s violence. He wasn’t just passively complicit but became an active accomplice and tried to make us all part of it by voting to continue it with zero changes or oversight. Browbeating the public to support it or else is not a winning strategy and he has only himself to blame, not any voters you want to castigate. A politician who can’t lead and can’t campaign and can hardly speak coherently in debates or policy discussions should be blamed for losing and not the voters. That’s how normal politics works. “Vote for the party no matter what” is not normal and you shouldn’t blame people for not sinking to your level of amorality or cynicism. You can’t blame Trump voters for ignoring his rape allegations and then get angry that Biden voters are wavering because of his inappropriate behaviors to women or his open support of genocide. It’s a double standard.
And despite this, despite breaking his campaign promises and shunning the community who helped him win last time, the Muslim-American community STILL turned out and majority voted for Democrats as we’ve done for the last 20 years. And we collectively lost anyway but you decided to make yourself feel better by blaming the victims here.
I’m still not talking about Muslim-Americans no matter how much you want me to be. Sorry. If you want to argue with someone about what Muslim-Americans believe, maybe post a topic?
Oh interesting, so were you lying above and below when you insisted you’re not talking about Muslims, despite comments bashing Muslims in your Flying Carpet Fallacy?
Flying carpet fallacy
The "flying carpet" fallacy denotes the debating technique of inappropriately bringing up a stereotypical, racist, or exotic fantasy about the "Muslim world", in order to shift a conversation away from a topic with more local relevance. It often boils down to a matter of false equivalence, and can be an inappropriate accusation of tu quoque or attempt to claim two wrongs make a right. The blogger Jehanzeb Dar originally coined the term in an essay in 2010.[1][2] The flying carpet fallacy is an informal fallacy.
I never once bashed Muslims. This has nothing to do with Muslims. Stop trying to make it about Muslims.
Of course you are, it’s what your above comment is about, trying to make false associations as if that applies to my community here.
Where did I make it about Muslims? Quote me. The only time I even mentioned them was when I was talking about the “Don’t vote for Kamala” people caring about the genocide of Muslims overseas but not giving a shit about the genocides that were going to hit their doorstep.
which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote.
If you are queer and have any way out, get out. If you can’t get out, scrub your internet history as clean as you possibly can because they will hunt you down.
God I hate it but there’s going to have to be a new underground railroad for pregnant women and queer and brown people…
And find themselves without fault?
Maybe Harris and the Democrats should’ve spent less time chasing Republicans and fascists for votes.
I voted for her btw. But is incredible how Dem voters repeatedly allow their leadership to be so weak and outt of touch.
And maybe people who repeatedly told others “don’t vote for Harris” should claim some culpability for people not voting for Harris…
But it’s amazing that every time I suggest that, someone has to talk about the faults of the Harris campaign as if you can’t blame more than one party. It’s whataboutism.
If you [general you] tell people not to vote for Harris and they don’t vote for Harris and then Trump wins, you have some culpability.
Those people weren’t running for president. They may be culpable but it’s no where near the same level as the actual party leadership.
Dems conveniently blame everyone but their own leadership every time they lose an election and therefore never learn anything from it.
Cool. I’m not a Democrat and this isn’t about the Democrats. This is about the people who wanted others to not vote for Harris. Stop trying to change the subject.
Who are these people you’re claiming said “don’t vote for Harris?” You and I had plenty of back and fourths before and after the election about what a shit job Biden (and then Harris) was doing campaigning but I never once told anyone who to vote for and I don’t recall anyone else doing that either. You seem to conflate “valid criticism of a candidate and their policies” to “telling you who to vote for” and that just isn’t the case.
You have a very poor memory if you claim you don’t remember anyone saying to not vote for Harris. Considering it’s even mentioned in the headline of this post, a very poor memory indeed.
It’s mentioned in the title in reference to some far-flung group not represented here. I’m talking about here on Lemmy.
If you are going to pretend the many people on Lemmy who very vociferously told people to not vote for Harris did not exist, please do not let me be the one to disabuse you of that. You go ahead and enjoy the rich fantasy where that never happened.
Verdant Banananot the voters’ job to make themselves buyable
that is all on the candidates
We are not talking about the voters or the candidates here. We are talking about the people telling voters not to vote for someone and then pretending they had no culpability whatsoever when that person loses. Thank you for proving my point.
People told others not to vote Harris because she sucked as a candidate
Not the citizens’ fault billionaires rigged the election again
I see you don’t understand cause and effect.
If you tell someone not to do something and then they don’t do it, you’re part of the cause.
If they’re telling people not to vote for someone because they’re doing something they can by all accounts stop doing, then it’s still on the candidate.
Yes, I understand both you and Mr. Banana, who went out of his way to constantly tell people not to vote for Harris every single day on Lemmy up through the first day in November, you want to divorce your words from any actual real effect they might have.
It’s very Republican of both of you.
at the end of the day Democrats had their check writers to think about which is why they intentionally lost
Harris consistently had wins handed to her on gold platters and Harris repeatedly stuck her nose up at the platters
Democrats are not the party of the people or progressives but just Republicans with different coat colors on getting checks from the same places
Elabed decided not to vote at the top of the ticket this year and focused instead on downballot races.
Elabed said she feels crushed by the reality of four years of the Trump administration’s policies toward Israel
😑
“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
He’s going to “end it” by rushing it to its conclusion you morons! Holy fuck! 🤦♂️
The real reason America deserves to fall to fascism is that you still have bootlickers in this very thread pretending the Harris campaign really did all it could to win, and it was the fault of the mean, nasty leftists online calling out her support for a genocide that got Trump elected.
Nobody is gonna learn a goddamn thing from this election, just like they haven’t for decades. American democracy died before I was born, people are just realizing it now.
The Trump campaign went all out with a campaign to offend and alienate, ensure everyone knew he’s unfit to be in charge of getting out of bed. Yet somehow he failed to drive away voters in droves
Decades ago the corporatists and oligarchs traded in the currency of societal need and societal trends. Having exploited those markets and needing more, they’ve perfected leveraging societal stupidity. Stupidity is the currency that now powers capitalism.
pjwestinI don’t really see how the Uncommitted movement could have done anything differently. They had pretty simple demands: let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, meet with families of Palestinians, meet with our leadership. The Harris campaign ignored all of those requests, so in the end, they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
Endorsing her just wasn’t an option, given that she did nothing to meet them halfway. If your spouse is abusive, and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,” then you have to leave them if their behavior doesn’t change. Otherwise, you are just inviting more abuse. If you tell a politician, “These are the minimum actions you must take to earn our endorsement,” and they ignore you, you can’t endorse them anyway. Otherwise, you’re announcing your demands carry no weight.
The Abandon Harris (previously Abandon Biden) movement was more hard-line, and the Democrats were clearly too centrist and hawkish to meet their demands for an immediate arms embargo But the Uncommitted movement offered reasonable steps that the Harris campaign could have taken to win over Arab Americans, and she flat out ignored them. She is clearly to blame for not taking that offramp.
No. And fuck you for taking that position. That Uncommitted position doesn’t ‘punish’ Harris, it simply ensures that a demagogue would be elected. AND just coincidentally, the early actions of that demagogue signals that Palestine simply won’t exist in any significant fashion in a few years.
The direct result of your holier-than-thou’ position is that Palestine gets fucked 10 times harder. Good job asshole.
harkPeople like you seem to think protesting against genocide is a bigger problem than sending billions in support of genocide. I can’t tell if it’s a matter of diehard party support above all else or simple delusion.
Just acknowledge that we were always getting one of two options. This isn’t confusing in the slightest.
To extend the analogy used in the comment starting this thread, it’s like leaving your abusive partner to live with a more abusive partner.
Why the ever loving fuck would you choose the worse option?
The choices were genocide or genocide. Apparently some privileged people here haven’t noticed that the genocide has already been getting worse and worse for over a year now.
Maybe electing someone unlikely to restrain them at all while simultaneously making shit worse in the US and Ukraine, doing a 180 on what little climate progress we’ve made, making abortion illegal nationwide, and reducing/ending social security will help.
Biden wasn’t restraining israel at all and Harris kept talking about how she’d be a continuation of Biden. Now you’re bringing in a bunch of other issues that aren’t what these voters are focused on. Turns out you have to appeal to voters to get their votes.
I need anyone involved with these write “I will not enable a greater evil through my inaction” 69 times on a chalkboard
What you’ve done is basically said “I wanted steak for dinner, and got chicken, so I just forced everyone to snort draino instead!”
Don’t worry, as this thread shows, the kinds of people who think like this have learned absolutely nothing, and are determined to learn absolutely nothing.