aLaStOr_MoOdY47

Besides your belief that there is no higher power, what are your thoughts on supernatural phenomena?

https://lemmy.world/post/22543242

Besides your belief that there is no higher power, what are your thoughts on supernatural phenomena? - Lemmy.World

Lets take a little break from politics and have us a real atheist conversation. Personally, I’m open to the idea of the existence of supernatural phenomena, and I believe mainstream religions are actually complicated incomplete stories full of misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and half-truths. Basically, I think that these stories are not as simple and straightforward as they seem to be to religious people. I feel like there is a lot more to them. Concluding that all these stories are just made up or came out of nowhere is kind of hard for me.

Nov 28, 2024 at 3:32pmWeb
Show threadKairuByteNov 28, 2024
Wait, is this a depiction of the flat earth dome cutting someone in half?
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
You look at it too literally, but yes, that’s what it looks like. It’s actually a symbolic painting supposed to represent the pursuit for mystical knowledge.
Show threadfutatoriusNov 28, 2024
It’s a bad Victorian picture of their defective understanding of the medieval mystical world view.
Show threadfuzzy_feelingNov 28, 2024

what’s the difference between higher power and supernatural phenomena?

sounds more like agnosticism to me…

Show threadHalashamNov 28, 2024
Supernatural phenomina could mean that psychics aren’t shysters, that some magicians are defying physics, or ghosts are real. Doesn’t necessarily have to mean there’s a god somewhere. I don’t believe in any of those things but that’s how I read this question.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Yes, that’s what I meant.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Higher power = some kind of god or creator. Supernatural phenomena = anything that transcends/defies the laws of nature.
Show threadIzzyScissorNov 28, 2024

SUPERnatural means “above” nature

TRANScend means to cross the threshold to a new plane

Those both imply higher powers in their name. You might not consider the higher power to be sentient or good or whatever, but you’re literally arguing for a higher power, just under a different name.

Show threadRhynoplazNov 28, 2024
I felt that in the context of the post, OP used Supernatural to mean “weird shit”. Nit picking on the definition of the word is just being argumentative, and not participating in the spirit of the conversation.
Show threadIzzyScissorNov 28, 2024
…nit-picking is what science IS. There is no way to independently verify the claims if OP can’t define what they’re even testing for.
Show threadRhynoplazNov 28, 2024
There’s a time and a place for science.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Oh, please. You know what I mean when I say supernatural. The extraordinary. Things that defy the laws of nature. Paranormal. Weird shit. You guys are complicating things for unknown reasons.
Supernatural - Wikipedia

Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Exactly. Thank you. Most people in the comments are just trying to sort of erase the word. But if I can’t call the phenomena supernatural, what do I call it? It most certainly needs a name.
Show threadfutatoriusNov 28, 2024
But a lot of the time, what they’re saying is “look at this photon, it transcends the law that everything has an electrical charge!” No, it doesn’t transcend anything: your understanding of natural law is defective. Most of the UFO silliness falls into that bucket: they draw stupid conclusions based on their fanciful interpretation of a few perceived data points, then think that half-assed reasoning is enough to invalidate some real science.
Show threadTachyonTeleNov 28, 2024
There hasn’t been any proof in all of history that any supernatural phenomenon was real.
Until there is, my thoughts on it are: not real, never happened.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
There also hasn’t been any proof that supernatural phenomena doesn’t exist. It’s why I choose to keep an open mind about it. It’s a subject that suffers a lot of stigma in the science-centric world we live in, and thus few people talk about it.
Show threadTachyonTeleNov 28, 2024

There also hasn’t been any proof that supernatural phenomena doesn’t exist.

You can play that game all day with anything. It’s not a valid argument.

Show threadfutatoriusNov 28, 2024
Exactly. There’s no definitive proof that winged monkeys won’t fly out of my asshole five minutes from now, but I’m not making plans that assume they will.
Show threadTachyonTeleNov 28, 2024
Well, you sold me. I definitely believe in your five minute asshole monkeys!
Show threadMelodiousFunkNov 28, 2024

I don’t.

But I want to.

Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Why is it not a valid argument?
Show threadTachyonTeleNov 28, 2024
That’s already been explained to you by others here.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
I want to hear your opinion. That’s the point of this post. It’s how we have healthy debates.
Show threadTachyonTeleNov 29, 2024
I’ve already started my opinion.
All you’re doing is telling people no. That’s not a debate.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
You haven’t really said anything. You just said that my argument isn’t valid, refused to elaborate why, and when asked to do so, you said that others have told me why, when I’m getting completely different opinions from multiple people. Also, disagreeing with people is literally what makes a debate a debate. What do you want me to do? Agree with everyone even if I don’t? That’s not how a genuine conversation works.
Show threadIzzyScissorNov 28, 2024
It rightly suffers stigma because it does not follow the scientific method, but claims to have scientific merit.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Supernatural phenomena does not claim to have scientific merit. You are also assuming that science will eventually explain everything about everything. That it is the only existing truth. This is called scientism, and it oversteps science’s proper boundaries.
Show threadIzzyScissorNov 28, 2024

Um… no? Not what I said and not what I believe.

To quote professor Farnsworth: “The pursuit of knowledge is hopeless and eternal. HOORAY!”

We’re always going to have things we don’t know. The point is to build on the knowledge we do have and to slowly get better. What the belief in the supernatural does is actually the shortcut to “being able to explain everything about everything”, because you’re presupposing the answer without any proof or testing done. Sure, those things might be possible, but so might be waking up in the Pokemon universe tomorrow.

Until there’s proof, I have no reason to act like there is. It’s a fun game to think about, but it shouldn’t hold any weight in how you see the universe we actually live in.

Also, the natural universe is weird enough already. Have you heard of the fine structure constant? Basically, we found this one constant number within all of these different fundamental formulas for how the universe behaves, but it doesn’t have a unit associated. So, we know that it exists and can calculate it, but no one knows WHY it exists. We think it’s a constant, but it might have changed over time, so we’re trying to find ways to test that. We might never know, but those questions are far more interesting to me than “maybe aliens”.

Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
Yes, there’s going to be stuff we don’t know about. That’s why I’m advocating for open-mindedness to supernatural phenomena. That’s my goal.
Show threadHemingways_ShotgunNov 28, 2024

There also hasn’t been any proof that supernatural phenomena doesn’t exist

You can’t prove a negative. Which is why in the scientific method, the onus is on the person making the claim to provide the proof, not the other way around. That’s why we rarely engage in debates with people who don’t grasp that concept, because for the most part they’re argument comes down to “You can’t prove it doesn’t exist, so therefore I’m right.”

Show threadlurch (he/him)Nov 28, 2024
There is no supernatural. Everything is natural. I’m agnostic, so I won’t rule out something exists some people would call a god, but even if it exists, I would count it as natural.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
I disagree. Supernatural is anything that transcends the laws of nature. Something that transcends the laws of nature is not natural.
Show threadIzzyScissorNov 28, 2024

To paraphrase Tim Minchin, the supernatural has either not been proved to exist or has been proved to not exist.

If you can test it - it’s natural. If you can’t test it - you can’t prove it even exists.

Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Inability to test something does not prove it doesn’t exist.
Show threadIzzyScissorNov 28, 2024
It doesn’t prove it, no, but it doesn’t need to. The burden of proof is on the one making a claim, so any claim should come with a way to test it. Otherwise, you can ALWAYS say, “Well, the flying spaghetti monster did it. You can’t prove me wrong.”
Show threadcowboydiplomatNov 28, 2024
What are the laws of nature? You keep saying that as if it proves something but haven’t defined it. Where do the laws come from?
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
The laws of physics, biology… blah blah blah. I really wish we’d stop arguing about the definition, because it won’t really go anywhere. You know what I mean when I say supernatural.
Show threadcowboydiplomatNov 29, 2024
Proofs start from axioms, which the ‘laws of nature’ as defined by you, are not. I don’t know what you mean, which is why I asked. You’re only revealing your own lack of critical thought here, this isn’t a gotcha like you think it is.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
What do you mean by gotcha? I think you’re just being difficult really.
Show threadcowboydiplomatNov 29, 2024
No I just come from a STEM background where we have a bit of a rigorous process for concluding that something is true. You’re starting with the conclusion and saying everybody else is stupid and difficult who points out the flaws in your logic.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
I don’t know what STEM has to do with supernatural phenomena but ok. I also have a STEM background, but I haven’t mentioned it until now because it’s not relevant. I have not called anyone stupid here. The reason why I’m saying you’re being difficult, is because you are so fixated on the definition of the word supernatural, that you’re missing the whole point of this discussion. Even the mod called this out somewhere in this comment section. Most people here just want to be dictionaries, that they’re missing the deeper part of the conversation.
Show threadcowboydiplomatNov 29, 2024
I’m saying your initial question is problematic and a bit silly if we’re having such a hard time categorizing things between natural and supernatural. It isn’t that weird a place to start a discussion. I’m in the camp of people who thinks 1) the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, I.e. you, and 2) it’s difficult to discuss whether a thing exists if you cannot first define the thing.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
When I say supernatural, I mean ghosts, spirits, deities, magic, aliens… etc. That kind of stuff. They all fall under the word supernatural.
Show threadultranautNov 28, 2024
Supernatural phenomena do not actually exist as far as I can tell. There’s no actual evidence to my knowledge, and plenty of evidence that humans are not particularly good at perceiving or interpreting the universe around us as it actually is. Our brains are not a reliable narrator, supernatural phenomena are most likely a consequence of this rather than anything genuinely supernatural.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
This argument is a very common one. It’s only valid at a scientific standpoint, since you can’t really scientifically prove something that transcends the laws of nature. However, at a historical standpoint, the existence of supernatural phenomena can be considered. There is also no evidence that supernatural phenomena does not exist.
Show threadcustard_swollowerNov 28, 2024
Any non-falsifiable theory is only worth so much.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
And can still be considered.
Show threadcustard_swollowerNov 28, 2024
Not really, because every non-falsifiable theory is true at the same time. I mean, I can’t forbid anyone from considering.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
And that’s what I’m advocating. For people to sit on the fence, instead of leaning hard-science, or hard-supernatural.
Show threadcustard_swollowerNov 29, 2024
You may have misunderstood me - supernatural theories are worthless because they are non-falsifiable.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
That doesn’t make them worthless. Have you ever listened to stories that may involve potential supernatural forces?
Show threadcustard_swollowerNov 29, 2024

Yes, I don’t believe any of them to be true. Most cultures got incompatible explanations to them, without a way to tell which is actually correct - my take is that each explanation is made up. And because people believe those explanations, they are not interested in digging into natural explanations.

Examples: seizures, schizophrenia, natural disasters, weather, infectious diseases

Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
Can I interest you in some legit YouTube channels that specialize is such stories?
Show threadultranautNov 28, 2024
I’m not sure what you mean about a historical standpoint. I don’t think there’s anything in the historical record that could be considered actual evidence of supernatural phenomena. History as an academic discipline is a kind of science and generally approaches the subject matter with the scientific method.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 29, 2024
What? Supernatural stuff has been talked about throughout history.
Show threadultranautNov 29, 2024
I don’t think you have understood any of my points. Reread my previous comments, this is addressed.
Show threadcustard_swollowerNov 28, 2024
I’m a strict naturalist - I believe that supernatural phenomena do not exist. I do not believe in the unknown.
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
Why? Supernatural phenomena isn’t really generally unknown.
Show threadcustard_swollowerNov 28, 2024
What do you mean? That people experience supernatural phenomena?
Show threadaLaStOr_MoOdY47Nov 28, 2024
If they didn’t, they would it be a thing?