Tom Capuder
Graeme Arthur@tomcapuder Your analogy misrepresents the biblical view. Humans aren’t “products” but free beings, capable of love and growth. God doesn’t abandon us to "fix ourselves"; Christianity centers on grace and redemption, not punishment. Jealousy in the Bible reflects protective love, not pettiness.
Then how can we be "free beings"? Can you do anything *other* than what God has forever foreseen you doing?
@tomcapuder Interesting question! Foreknowledge doesn't necessarily negate free will. A common analogy is watching a recording: knowing the outcome doesn't mean the people in it were coerced. Omniscience means God knows every choice you will freely make, not that you're forced into it. Thoughts?
If God has forever known that tomorrow at noon you'll do X, then when the time comes, you can *only* do X. You can't not do it, and you can't do Y instead. You can only do what God has foreseen.
If you make what you feel is a free choice, and God has always known what you'd choose, then the "freedom" is just an illusion, as you made the only decision you could have made. If you could make another choice instead, then the god isn't omniscient.
@tomcapuder knowing an outcome doesn’t necessarily mean causing it. For example, I might know my kid will choose to wear their favorite shoes tomorrow, but that doesn’t mean they lack the freedom to choose differently. God’s omniscience surely works similarly except he knows perfectly —it’s knowledge of free choices, not their cause. Does being fully known scare you?
Your example is flawed, in that he has a favorite that you know he has. Instead, it's as if he had 5 pairs of shoes, and no matter which he chose, favorite pair or not, you *knew*, not just predicted, what his choice would be.
And if you were truly omniscient, he would choose *only* what you in your omniscience foresaw. It would be impossible for him to make any other choice.
As far as your question, let's not attempt to divert into irrelevant personal matters, such as what scares your interlocutor. Please stick to the issues at hand. Thanks.
@tomcapuder yes you make my point for me well indeed ... I agree it would be impossible for him to make any other choice but It would be his free choice. You admit it was a choice, Me knowing the outcome of the choice (even if it's before it happens) doesn't mean it's my choice, it's his!
If it's impossible to make any other choice than that which was foreseen by an omniscient being, then how is it a free choice? Again, if he could make a different choice than the one foreseen, then the omniscient being isn't really omniscient.
My argument has more to do with omniscience than with god. IMO, omniscience is a nonsensical idea.
@tomcapuder because seeing something isn't the same as choosing for someone else to do it. The fact it's seen before it happens is irrelevant.
With an omniscient god, it's the *freedom* of the choice that's the illusion. The choice cannot be free if it's been eternally foreseen and you can't choose anything else, no matter what your mental processes are leading up to the "choice."
God knows you'll choose X, so you'll choose X. I don't see the freedom in the choice. It's the unworkable idea of omniscience that's causing the problem here.
@tomcapuder I agree you don't seem to be seeing the freedom of the choice.
Suppose I know with certainty which breakfast cereal you pick tomorrow. How does that restrict the freedom of your choice? You could have picked anything, it's your choice... I agree that sometimes my kids are predestined to put on their shoes, but they do have plenty of free choices.
Suppose I know with certainty which breakfast cereal you pick tomorrow. How does that restrict the freedom of your choice? You could have picked anything, it's your choice... I agree that sometimes my kids are predestined to put on their shoes, but they do have plenty of free choices.
"Suppose I know with certainty which breakfast cereal you pick tomorrow."
Humans can't know that (or which shoes their child will choose) *with certainty*; we make educated guesses based on experience and probability. This is different from divine omniscience, which is knowing in advance that something will happen, *certainly and unchangingly*. Your god, if he exists, has forever known I'd be typing this now. My choice to do so may *feel* free, but that would be an illusion. The choice was predestined, or else the god isn't omniscient.
Of course, it's more likely that no gods exist...
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