Don_DickleWhy does it seem most people, mainly conservatives, against Trans people? Unless I am wrong I never heard of one shooting up a school church or whatever. The ones I have met have been pretty cool.
JackGreenEarthThis video explains it better than me, but mostly a combination of religion being against trans people and bad science.
The Pure Hypocrisy of Anti-Trans Christian Nationalists
You need an enemy who can't fight back... So it's never: The white male millionaires are coming for us [...]
Curious Canid“Religion” is too broad a term. Conservatives like to call what they practice Christianity, although it would have appalled Christ. They also like to represent themselves as the mainstream of Christianity, but they are very much in the minority. They just get on the news more often.
i believe it, the bad science is here in this thread!
AdaBecause stirring up hate against vulnerable minorities, by positioning them as a threat is a well tested and effective technique for the power hungry to gain and retain power. And it’s effective, because it works by pulling people in and making all of the conversation about whether or not it’s right to hate on the group they’re targeting.
It is also exceedingly important to note that plenty on the Right don’t explicitly hate Trans people. That’s a rhetoric. They may be worried about some of the news “reports” and “”“stories”“”, had to triple quote that one, and yes the radical Right and MAGA do buy in hard and hate due to racial and superiority bullshit. What so many on the Right who are on the fence about these things are truly scared of…
Is having an opinion that deviates from the people around them who they’ve known probably all their lives. Unlike us on the Left who hiss and spit at one another every time one of us has a family gathering, many on the Right fear alienating their social circles.
If you ever want to change the mind of someone on the Right you really just need to soothe their rabid, horrid, twisted by those around them, frothing soul of an angry jackass and make them feel as if they can actually believe something else could be the truth.
But by GOD can it be tiring.
The more I read these comments it sound like the USA is entering its Hitler phase.
They very much are…
Hell we used to genocide and enslave the people we looked down on. Talking ill of them on Fox News is a step up, my friend.
faena.com/…/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-iden…
In an essay published in the New York Review of Books, Umberto Eco distilled the 14 typical elements of “Ur-Fascism or Eternal Fascism,” while warning that, “These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.”
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The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
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The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
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The cult of action for action’s sale. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.” Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture, the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
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Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.” Appeal to social frustration. “[…] one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.
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The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
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The enemy is both weak and strong. “[…] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
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Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
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Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
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Everybody is educated to become a hero. “in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
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Machismo and Weaponry. “This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.”
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Selective Populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
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Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
Spot on. The fucking bathroom issue I keep hearing kills me. They are in there to take a shit Karen not to pass you brownies though the stalls and play a game of peak a boo above the stalls
I still don’t understand their claims that bathroom segregation makes anyone “safer”
Do they think there’s some kind of law on the books that says “Anyone who matches the gender on the sign can diddle anyone inside they want!” cause that’s how they act…
Personally I find it silly that bathrooms are segregated at all when stalls exist.
skulblakaPersonally I find it silly that bathrooms are segregated at all when stalls exist.
You mean the 3-foot particle board separator with a 2-foot gap at the bottom and a solid inch of space around the entire door, the gap large enough to make eye contact with someone at the sink while you’re sitting with your pants down?
Because that’s what passes for a “stall” in 99% of America. Privacy never even came into the conversation when they designed those damn things. They are designed to give the bare minimum illusion of privacy while still being easily stared through to make sure no one is doing drugs in your bathroom. At any point in time any employee of any company has a right to come into the bathroom, peer through the crack in the door and make sure you’re in there dropping a dook properly and not say, shooting up heroin. And you can’t stop them even if you wanted to, the stalls are designed to make that possible.
So, with that knowledge, I sort of almost understand the people that get all up in arms about this. Because there is almost NO expectation of privacy in ANY American public bathroom. If we had European style stalls this would never have been a problem in the first place. But because anybody can just walk up and literally make eye contact from outside the stall while you’ve got your pants down, some folks can be understandably concerned about that.
That doesn’t excuse any of this mess and it doesn’t make them correct, but non-americans don’t realize how shoddy our typical public restroom is. The anger at trans folks should instead be directed at the cheap-ass building contractors that mandate bathrooms that don’t give you privacy.
It’s strange to them.
When people encounter something that’s different from what they are used to, they don’t know how to process it. It makes them uncomfortable. Some people, instead of learning how to deal with that feeling like a mature adult, blame the individual for making them feel uncomfortable and resent them for “making them feel that way”. Just staying away is not enough, they must be punished for existing.
All because someone felt a little icky when they thought about a girl with a weiner.
AkasazhThis is really it. They feel strange about it and cannot grok it. It’s bizzarre that it can break even people that I hold in high regard.
For instance Graham Linehan, the brilliant writer of Father Ted, Black Books and The IT Crowd went completely of the rails like his own father Jack when it came to transgender people. There’s people who just cant cope. Even including LGBT+ people. Theres plenty of gay people that hate transgenders with a passion and fail to see that the very same hate was directed at themselves a generation before.
It boggles the mind. But really people feel really icky about the fact that people can choose their gender when they are being plagued by being welded to that gender in most of their lives.
puppycat (she/her)well yeah they don’t like the thought of a girl with a weiner, you can’t degrade and classify women into being just a hole+reproductive organs if they might not have that. (but also pre-op trans dudes can’t use women’s bathrooms cus they aren’t women but still will never be men???) bigots are bigots.
Even as someone who fully accepts trans people and has trans friends and family, it’s still an adjustment to some really old, deeply-seated habits and mental structures. I’m over 50 so I was set in my ways when I learned about “they” pronouns and it still takes work for me to get it right. If I didn’t care about the people involved, it would be very easy to see it as a burden or annoyance.
HipsterTenZerosome schmucks want to exploit the very basic fear of the unfamiliar, and they pointed it at trans folk to get votes or whatever.
Not that it really matters as a legitimate cause to dislike trans people, but the 2023 Nashville shooting at a school was done by a trans person.
so the only redeeming value of trans people is that they don’t shoot up schools?
/s
After it became less acceptable to explicitly hate the gays in public they needed a new target. There’s a lot of people who like being riled up with hatred, who are fearful and need a bogeyman, etc. It’s either human nature or something deeply embedded in our culture. Eventually they will move on and find a new target to focus their hate on.
Because conservatives are smooth brained and small minded
I’m going to get all sorts of fun responses for trying to empathize with those with whom I disagree (instead of just writing “dumb bigots”) but here goes:
First, remember that even gay marriage is fairly new to America, it’s been around for less time than the MCU.
There are a lot of folks who almost have mental whiplash, gay marriage went from illegal to “you could get fired for being vocally uncomfortable about it” in fairly quick order.
Now, to make things even more wild for those folks, mainstream culture is pretty insistent that gender isn’t even a thing anymore. Add in some pretty wild news stories/videos*, worries for their kids and the notion that the Left refuses to say there might be any issues whatsoever and you can kinda see where a backlash could crop up.
- eg: trans women being reassigned to women’s prisons and then assaulting the women etc, a 6"2, 220lb woman practically murdering her handball oppoisition, some fairly sketchy research practices by some of the authorities (WPATH) on the subject etc.
metaStaticmainstream culture
Talk to any random person on the street and they don't fucking care about identity politics.
Extremists are not the mainstream no matter how much they shout about it.
No, most people aren’t going out of their way to hurt trans people, but those loud extremists are creating a negative connotation in some people’s minds. That’s no different from racism.
Extremists on both sides are a problem, so when you say "those loud extremists" a reasonable person would have no idea who you're talking about. I think you're correct in either instance, but I doubt that's what you where going for.
Oh. My bad. I thought a reasonable person would assume I meant the loud extremists that match the topic of this post.
There’s a reason conservatives campaign against “woke.” And most conservatives I know socially called the election a win against woke, even if they couldn’t exactly name a woke policy that Harris proposed.
Harris explicitly didn't play identity politics, and I applaud her for it. I think the left is starting to realise even people who agree with them dislike being told what to think ... one can dream right.
I like your dream and fully agree on Harris.
Sadly (though I am admittedly a pessimist and would love to be wrong) I think the Left elites/party brass are coming to that realization on identity politics. But I dont think mainstream/cultural Left is and unfortunately, I think Right and centre Right curious voters view the political and cultural Left as the same.
This aligns with what I have heard from folks I know in that world. Fear motivated by exaggerating one off and isolated incidents. The information silos in the conservative world (especially news) is frightening.
You were doing reasonably well, until you diverted to pure transphobia in the last paragraph
The listing of the news/videos they may have seen?
Not the list, but the way you described them, as if these were things that actually happen…
This is part of the thing. If we on the Left can’t have an honest discussion about things that do happen, then it is incredibly hard for anyone not already “on side” to take us seriously.
trans women being reassigned to women’s prisons and then assaulting the women etc economist.com/…/americas-growing-row-over-policie… “Tremaine Carroll, a transferred inmate serving 25 years to life for violent crimes, was charged with raping two women in ccwf and faces trial soon; Carroll denies the charges. In 2022 an inmate moved to Rikers Island women’s prison in New York received a seven-year sentence for attempted rape.”
This is a tricky issue, trans women in men’s prisons are also at risk. But to straight up deny these things happen and deny the existence of non transphobic concerns, well, that’s hard to take seriously.
a 6"2, 220lb woman practically murdering her handball oppoisition
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SJYdXj7Kac&ab_channel=Wi…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Mouncey
Murder was hyperbole, probably inappropriate. But damn, she is just so much bigger than her entire team and everyone on the opposition in all of those clips. (She also dominates in Aussie rules football.)
some fairly sketchy research practices by some of the authorities (WPATH) on the subject economist.com/…/research-into-trans-medicine-has-…
The whole article is discomforting and worth reading. But, while WPATH (what is supposed to, and claims to be and independent science based organization) was creating their guidelines: “But an email in October 2020 from WPATH figures, including its incoming president at the time, Walter Bouman, to the working group on guidelines, made clear what sort of science WPATH did (and did not) want published. Research must be “thoroughly scrutinised and reviewed to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender health care in the broadest sense,” it stated. Mr Bouman and one other coauthor of that email have been named to a World Health Organisation advisory board tasked with developing best practices for transgender medicine.”
Again, I’m generally on board with trans rights etc but to say there aren’t issues just makes it that much harder to take us at face value.
This is a tricky issue, trans women in men’s prisons are also at risk
“Also at risk”
The fact that you equate cherry picked single instance anecdotes as comparable to entrenched violence and discrimination against trans folk as being somehow comparable is the part that makes it transphobia.
Murder was hyperbole
It was, yeah. Despite her “murdering” the opposition, from the very article you linked, Australia finished 5th.
There are 7 players on a handball team. She scored 23 goals across 6 games, for an average of just under 4 goals per game (3.83 to be specific).
The total goals scored by Australia in those games was 160, which works out to an average of 3.81 per Australian player across those 6 games. Her “murdering” of her opponents consisted of having a 0.02% higher average than her team mates.
The fact that you parrot lines like “murdering” and look at videos designed to make it look open and shut, whilst not bothering to investigate the reality of the situation is what makes it transphobic.
The whole article is discomforting and worth reading. But, while WPATH (what is supposed to, and claims to be and independent science based organization) was creating their guidelines:
An article posted on the economist, who has Helen Joyce, a vocally transphobic journalist as one of their senior staff. Linking to an article that has been mostly circulated on various transphobic websites, calling out WPATH for being biased and getting in the way of evidence based research? Whilst defending the Cass review, which has been widely called out by many international medical bodies for its own bias and inconsistent approach to evidence.
The fact that you’re worried about WPATH as the real issue here is telling…
You are misunderstanding.
Most reasonable, casual folks, who aren’t up on who Helen Joyce is or other trans poli sco lore, these are all fairly reasonable takes. The Economist is generally regarded as one of the most reputable papers around and for good reason.
I’ve also not presented my beliefs, just “here’s some pretty mainstream concerns.” I made that pretty clear in my opening statement (and pointed out that pretty much this exactly would happen.)
You’ve clearly encountered these arguments before (definitely didn’t watch the video which is fucking sympathetic). I’m not making these arguments.
I’m saying that reasonable people, who read one of the most reputable papers in the world can in fact have reservations on some trans issues. I can disagree with them but it’s not just bigotry.
The Economist - Bias and Credibility
LEAST BIASED These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using an appeal to emotion or stereotypes). The reporting is factual and usually sourced. These are the most credible media sources. See all Least Biased sources. Overall, we rate The Economist as Least Biased based on balanced reporting and
Yes, they’re designed to seem that way.
Which is why I earlier stated that my issue wasn’t with listing them, but specifically, the way you presented them.
I’ve also not presented my beliefs
You used the word “murdering” to describe a transgender woman playing sports with other women, despite her playing at a level comparable to them.
You absolutely presented your beliefs.
You used the word “murdering” to describe a transgender woman playing sports with other women, despite her playing at a level comparable to them.
Oh come off it. Watch the video, she’s a damn head taller than almost everyone she’s playing against and God knows how many ppunds heavier.
If we don’t want to be the crazy side we have to come to terms with arguments about issues, even important ones, not being only good or evil.
I went through the numbers to highlight her performance is on par with the rest of her team, and you still think that I’m being unreasonable
As I said, you presented your position quite clearly, which is why I called you out
I don’t think you’re unreasonable, you have more context than myself and any other casual North American sports fan who (shockingly!) hasn’t learned the points per game rates of Aussie rules footie, seeing someone a foot taller than their competition makes us go “huh, that seems wild.”
As we do when reading one of the most reputable papers in the world raising concerns about transgender health science methodology.
(For what it’s worth, in my personal experience of playing mid level co-ed rec league sports in a large liberal city for awhile, I’ve played against a few teams, mostly their trans player was the best woman on their team and by not a small margin. We don’t give a shit because, like I said, mid level co-ed rec league sports.)
Thr fact you feel compelled to “call out” someone trying to sincerely answer a reasonable question kinda speaks volumes.
someone trying to sincerely answer a reasonable question
Yeah, that’s why you linked to transphobic hit pieces and described trans women in sports with hugely emotionally loaded terms
Because you’re reasonable
As I said from the beginning, your comment was fine unti you let some of your more transphobic opinions out in the final paragraph. That paragraph was not “reasonable”
If you’re at the point where you’re calling articles in ond of the most reputable papers on Earth “transphobic hit pieces”, you need go re-evaluate.
🇦🇺𝕄𝕦𝕟𝕥𝕖𝕕𝕔𝕣𝕠𝕔𝕠𝕕𝕚𝕝𝕖U are literally denying objective reality at best it weakens ur arguments at worse it makes u look like a grifter.
ScubusBruh check out the guys post history, read their comment history, they arent exactly a trans ally
I don’t recall posting about trans anything, can you refresh my memory?
Which I don’t get because they’re all about rape as a jail punishment
Can we compromise? No trans people in sports and trans people have their own unique prison or cell block and young teens can take puberty blockers and estrogen so they don’t need to try to pay 150,000 in facial feminization plastic surgery at 18 or 19, money of which they can only get quickly from sex work and not going to school? Sound like a good compromise?
I don’t know what the answers are!
A lot of this stuff is mostly at the state level which seems almost reasonable.
I imagine the big actual fight on this would come down to when are parents able to over-ride their kids wishes and vice versa. It’s a shitty battle for trans kids; if you don’t let them access medicine early, it puts them on a brutal path as you pointed out. But I also can’t imagine conservatives would be chill letting their kids alter their sex at such a young age.
We don’t let kids get tattoos (and thank Christ for that, otherwise I’d probably have Wolverine fighting the Zerg on my chest or something) this seems bigger.
I dunno, like most real world issues, it’s tricky. And at the fun intersection of children and a rapidly changing perspective of gender, well damn, there are going to be some ugly fights.
I just don’t think it’s as much of a random fad for kids as conservatives worry.
the analogy of “oh i want a cool new weird haircut/strange tattoo” = same as getting hormones and genital altering surgery seems incorrect to me
kids are not that stupid at that age and gender is mostly hardwired. i just don’t think kids of that age would take it trivially
many trans kids exhibit extreme opposite gender behavior from very early ages. I am not talking about boys liking pink or not liking trucks, i am talking about boys crying because they can’t wear dresses and hating the male parts of their body. There is something that happens to some XY or XX brains in utero that causes the default brain wiring that causes certain behavior to be the opposite of what it normally is. This shouldn’t be that unfathomable. There are animals that contain DNA from before certain evolutions (like tailless animals having tail DNA) and it’s just turned off. The idea that epigenetics, prenatal hormone levels, and endocrine disruptors can’t alter sexual identity development isn’t really supported by data, and even though the exact way transgenderism occurs isn’t fully understood, it’s not caused by some evil Satanic vodoo or a liberal Hollywood plot.
The only reason why this isn’t accepted as true is an anti-science mentality caused by religion, and your response is biased by religion or conformity whether you realize it or not.
I just don’t think it’s as much of a random fad for kids as conservatives worry.
I agree. And the science might as well!
But I think Conservatives look at recent research, especially anything touching social sciences, as the product of what they view as an extremely liberal academic elite. Admittedly, I am similarly skeptical of most reports and analyses by the Heritage foundation and the like even when they share their methodology.
A charitable version of the conservative parent viewpoint might be something like “if my kid is genuinely trans, of course I’ll support them. But I am a parent and know best about how to protect them, even if it is from themselves.”
At the end of the day, I think a lot of conservative parents are opposed to the idea that government, or experts, or whomever could over-rule them about their own kids. Especially on a subject about which they probably feel somewhat uncomfortable.
I also don’t think religion is a requirement for close mindedness, though there is significant overlap.
If I remember correctly uvalde was a trans person, but most of the time its just people using one good thing about themselves to justify being horrible. Think holier-than-thou type shit.
RivalarrivalUvalde shooter was not. www.bbc.com/news/61607042
The NYPost has an article about the Nashville shooter. Before she went through with the shooting she texted an old friend about it. The friend got interviewed and for whatever reason the NYPost used a Facebook picture of her all glammed up. It’s really out of place.
Nashville school shooter Audrey Hale's chilling final messages to pal revealed: 'I'm planning to die'
Nashville school shooter Audrey Hale sent her friend, Averianna Patton, a chilling “suicide note” on Instagram minutes before shooting at The Covenant School, writing: “I’m planning to die today.”…
IMNOTCRAZYINSTITUTIONYou are parroting a lie
He just got the exact shooting wrong, which can happen with the sheer amount of school shootings in the US.
Damn if only I acknowledged somehow that my memory was imperfect and I may be wrong, maybe by saying smth like “if I remember correctly”.
well it’s kind of your responsibility to fact check that kind of thing before repeating it, no? regardless you’re not the one I called a dumbass, it was the clowns downvoting me for stating a fact.
We’re I presenting it as a definite fact yes, but I was presenting it as a possible thing that I was pretty sure had happened. Also, I know you weren’t talking about me with the edit I didn’t even look at it while typing my reply.