AlsephinaNov 8, 2024

Europe Can’t Fund ‘Lost’ War in Ukraine Without US, Orban Says

https://lemmy.ml/post/22269975

Europe Can’t Fund ‘Lost’ War in Ukraine Without US, Orban Says - Lemmy

> Europe won’t be able to finance Ukraine’s defenses against Russia’s invasion on its own if the US withdraws support under Donald Trump’s next presidency, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said Friday. > Orban said recent events vindicated the conclusions from his controversial July diplomatic mission to Kyiv, Moscow and Beijing and showed Ukraine was losing the war. > “The Americans are going to get out of this war,” Orban, who is hosting a European Union summit in Budapest on Friday, said on public radio. “Europe can’t finance this war on its own.” Archive link [https://ghostarchive.org/archive/LPfMV]

Show thread9point6Nov 8, 2024

Once again, Orban says exactly what Putin wants him to say

At some point it becomes malicious to even print what he says

Show threaddariusj18Nov 8, 2024
There is an unfortunate reality that there is a tipping point. At some point, Europe will need to cede Ukraine and stock up for itself to defend the next Russian incursion.
Show threadanachronistNov 8, 2024
Yeah the best way to discourage a revanchist is to give him what he wants. Succeeding in Ukraine will definitely convince Putin not to attack the baltics, poland, or finland.
Show threaddavelNov 8, 2024

You don’t understand what Russia wants; you understand what Western propaganda tells you it wants.

INB4 NATO is a defensive alliance.

Show threadKühlschrankNov 8, 2024

Just because you can cherry pick a dozen articles from the last TEN YEARS about NATO doesn’t make you right.

I don’t even need an article to refute all of that - Russia attacked a neighbor unprovoked, NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.

Show threaddavel

Russia attacked a neighbor unprovoked

I just showed you any number of Western media sources on how it was provoked, but here’s another from Jeffrey Sachs: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace

NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.

For just two examples, NATO bombed the city of Belgrade for 78 straight days, and it destroyed Libya.

The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace — Jeffrey D. Sachs

By recognizing that the question of NATO enlargement is at the center of this war, we understand why U.S. weaponry will not end this war. Only diplomatic efforts can do that. JEFFREY D. SACHS May 23, 2023 Common Dreams George Orwell wrote in 1984 that "Who controls the past control

Jeffrey D. Sachs
Nov 8, 2024 at 10:10pmWeb
Show threadKühlschrankNov 8, 2024

If your ideas of provocation are the same as the article you provided, you’re going to have to do better.

There were in fact two main U.S. provocations. The first was the U.S. intention to expand NATO to Ukraine and Georgia in order to surround Russia in the Black Sea region by NATO countries (Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and Georgia, in counterclockwise order).

  • Surely even Russia understands why people would want to expand and join NATO when they’re attacking people who are not members

The second was the U.S. role in installing a Russophobic regime in Ukraine by the violent overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian President, Viktor Yanukovych, in February 2014.

  • Surely even Russia understands why people would want to have and be a Russophobic regime when they’re attacking people who are not violent. The protests against Yanukovych were peaceful until his regime turned on the protesters.

But why am I wasting my time arguing with you when you’re obviously here for some reason to carry water for Russia?

Show threaddavelNov 8, 2024

The protests against Yanukovych were peaceful until his regime turned on the protesters.

That is not what happened. It is now known that that was in fact a false flag attack by CIA-backed Banderite fascists. It is also now known that the “peaceful protest” was not entirely grassroots, but rather astroturfed.

But why am I wasting my time arguing with you when you’re obviously here for some reason to carry water for Russia?

But why am I wasting my arguing with you when you’re obviously here for some reason to carry water for imperialists? The US is aiding and abetting a genocide in Palestine as we speak, yet somehow you still think we’re the good guys (though, to be fair, I wouldn’t call Russia a perfect angel, either).

Core countries - Wikipedia

Show threadanachronistNov 8, 2024

Jeffrey Sachs

Lol. Neoliberal wrecking crew turned autocrat’s errand boy.

Show threaddavelNov 9, 2024
Naomi Klein wasn’t wrong about neoliberal/neocolonial shock therapy, but she was wrong to paint Sachs as the great villain of that story. www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWYZpF2ngnc
Jeffrey Sachs, Taibbi: How The West DESTROYED Russia

YouTube
Show threadanachronistNov 10, 2024

History has misjudged Jeffery Sachs according to… Jeffery Sachs!

Let’s be real, he’s the main guy pushing the “NATO expansion” theory of Russian aggression everywhere, and it exists mainly to cover for his own crimes.

What’s more likely: that Russian revanchism came from anger over some arcane treaty negotiations, or that it came from the absolute collapse in material condition, civil society, population, daily lived experience and life expectancy that Russians experienced as Sachs and his evil clients dismantled the once-great civilization for their own enrichment? What do you think Marx’s assessment of those two theories would be?

Sachs is a bag man. He helped the oligarchs destroy Russia and then he made himself useful to the new ruler when they were gone. He also spends a lot of time in Beijing and has a lot of good things to say about Xi as well. The guy’s a serpent.

Show threaddavelNov 10, 2024

What’s more likely: that Russian revanchism came from

Well there’s your problem: you believe the imperial core’s narrative that this is about “Russian revanchism” and not about decades of NATO expansion or Western Ukrainian fascists terrorizing eastern Ukrainians for almost a decade.

Believe what you like, but you don’t seem to be winning any hearts and minds here, and hardly anyone reads this far down conversation threads, anyway.

Core countries - Wikipedia