Mastodawn

shoulderoforion Oct 24, 2024

"Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.

It's entirely clear why the change was done, it's not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to "grass root" it by Russian troll factories isn't going to change anything.

And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing.

If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.

As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too."

fuck yes. fuck russia. fuck russians.

Allero Oct 24, 2024

So, basically it’s enough to say “Fuck Russia, Fuck Russians” here and it gains you massive support.

Seriously?

First, how does this fuck Russia the state?

Second, what everyday Russians have to do with it? What justifies sneaking in hate messaged to a diverse ethnic group with no single ideology?

Saying “Fuck Russians” is about the same as “Fuck Jews” because Israel has done bad things. This is not okay.

At the very least, a strong majority of russians are supporters of genocidal imperialism, however a solid argument could be made that it’s more like an overwhelming majority.

This holds true across all demographic segments; income, education, age, region, rural vs urban. You may have a situation where the support for genocidal imperialism is a mere majority (e.g. younger cohorts), while others approach an almost absolute majority (older cohorts), but the majority always holds no matter how you slice and dice it.

This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years. I can share a pretty funny anecdote about how an allegedly opposition minded russian (who gets quoted in the NYT) had to twist his own quantitative findings to present a better picture of russian society.

Even recent qualitative research run by opposition minded russian researchers shows a damning picture among of even allegedly moderate russians (in russian, I can share it).

A strong majority of everyday russian support the extermination of Ukrainian culture and sending everyone who disagrees to a torture camp. And this is not limited to Ukraine, they have a similar attitude to all nations that freed themselves from cancer that was the USSR.

Unfortunately many are ignorant of the nature of russian society or prefer to reject difficult information (it’s just social media hate).

Torvalds is a Finn and he understand these things and he doesn’t have the liberty of shying away from reality.

When compare “Fuck Russians” to “Fuck Jews”; what exactly are you referring to? Russian as in the ethnicity or Russian as in the nationality. This is actually a pretty important point.

This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years.

I would require some data from a person who likely wouldn’t say the same about countries backing Turkey (and by extension Azerbaijan) and Israel.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/…/20531680221108328 meduza.io/…/a-kogda-uzhe-pobeda-to-nasha-budet www.jiia.or.jp/en/column/…/russia-fy2022-01.html

I specially provided a selection of lesser know research to avoid the usual arguments about “but how can you do polling in a totalitarian state”.

Turns out, you can. And the findings show that preference falsification (e.g. a russian saying that they support the invasion of Ukraine, when they really don’t) is minor and does not change the real picture; that at the very least a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.

I didn’t say a lot of people don’t support it. But that’d be in parity with a lot of Americans supporting invasion of Iraq or Israel’s crimes. Which makes them similar genocidal imperialists. So genocidal imperialism is normal in your “civilized world”, you are doing it.

That injustice would be responsible, by the way, for a certain percentage of people answering something not because they support the war, but because they hate all those virtue-signaling jerks who support many other wars which go unpunished, with those jerks also residing in states where their political position doesn’t cost them fines or jail. I don’t like hypocrisy as well.

And it’s funny, another guy just talked about “apathetic stance”, and you now talk about “totalitarian state”, and both are used to blame Russians, while they are mutually contradictory. If a state is totalitarian, then any stance taken without a suicide belt (and most taken with it) doesn’t give you any immediate results. And it is.

I’m not going to argue that the majority of neurotypical people will support a war their state starts. If you are from the USA, yours did with much bigger euphoria than Russians in 2022.

Alphane Moon

This is pretty tired whataboutism w.r.t US and Iraq.

The Iraq equivalent would be American annexing Basra state, banned arabic and forcing everyone to speak with a Texan accent and eat pork chops.

All the while sending Arabic speaker to dungeons and having state TV with goons laughing about how they caught a local Iraq women speaking Arabic and sent her to a dungeon.

What bloody “equivalent”? I’m talking about literal US invasion of Iraq which has killed more Iraqis than Russia has Ukrainians in the same amount of time.

They don’t call it an invasion in your land of the free? Or they really think that was normal and somehow different from 2022-now?

But we can do Iraq for your analogy too. When Saddam invaded Iran with pretty land-grabbing nationalist goals, they’d do a lot of fucked up shit of this kind, and they were supported by the West. Iranians have fought back, and that’s why despite hating the Islamic regime, they have no illusions about the West too.

I want to ask you another thing - do you realize that the mafia group in control of Russia got to the point of no opposition and ability to invade, for example, Ukraine, because from the very beginning it was supported by the West against democratic forces in Russia?

Yeltsin’s coup in 1993 was supported by the West. Oh, yes, his opponents were very scary, some “red-brown” mix of goosestepping neo-Nazis and Stalinists. But there’s one little problem - those obviously unpleasant people would refrain from violence and try to solve the crisis via peaceful means till the very storming of parliament (where they were, ahem, the majority).

Probably half of the Russian elites have emigrated to Western countries by now with their stolen money ; were that process not as welcome from the receiving countries, maybe it wouldn’t be their main goal, and maybe that would have lead to an environment where Russia’s elites can possibly change.

For you, extermination of Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories is OK. For me it’s not.

And at any rate, I don’t buy your “whataboutism” about Iraq. You don’t care about killed Iraqi civilians just you like you don’t care about Ukrainiains killed by Russians.

No, I do not believe in russian victimhood narratives.

For you, extermination of Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories is OK. For me it’s not.

Somebody should have explained it to you long ago that your comments can be a source of information about yourself, and not about me.

And at any rate, I don’t buy your “whataboutism” about Iraq. You don’t care about killed Iraqi civilians just you like you don’t care about Ukrainiains killed by Russians.

I care about them very much, I would prefer cockroach Americans to die instead of them - and instead of Ukrainians.

No, I do not believe in russian victimhood narratives.

You are a cockroach. Pretending to be good and kind where it doesn’t cost you anything. See, when it does, a man becomes more concerned with something he pays for with various things to be correct and true.

If you care about Ukrainian lives, go to war and replace one of those lives with your own. And if you don’t, you should preach for peace because more people die in war than in peace.

Recognizing that laying the blame that your country is authoritarian and genocidal on someone else makes me a cockroach?

Yeah, we’ve seen how well “peace with russia” worked out after 2014.

No, you are a cockroach because you are ignoring everything of matter in my comments, pretending they say something else.

I realize my country is genocidal. You don’t realize your country is genocidal. If you would, it wouldn’t make sense for you to run around with condemnations.

Also my country is authoritarian and yours is not supposed to be that, I agree. That also makes your responsibility for said crimes bigger than mine. But I don’t think you ever thought about that, don’t seem the type.

Yeah, we’ve seen how well “peace with russia” worked out after 2014.

Ukraine should have been the initiator of some kind of compromise after the first 6 months, when Russia looked pathetic.

Instead they used the moment for propaganda targeted at their own population. Probably to keep the current government in power.

Any kind of peace would allow them to make further preparations for a war not limited by Donbass and Crimea.

In Crimea the idea of separating from Ukraine was always popular, it was always treated by many people as some mistake that they are part of Ukraine. So losing Crimea is not really a loss.

And compromise, while involving real losses, should be measured not against some ideal right and law, but against the fact that anything else will be paid with lives and those will not be of Americans, Europeans and other white civilized people telling Ukrainians to fight against Russia instead of them.

I’m telling you, every Armenian and Georgian looking at the war in Ukraine sees how the “alternative” demanded by hawkish protesters works, and finds appreciation for the wisdom of their own governments in that particular regard.

Always the victim!

Like I said. That’s why you are a cockroach. OK, done.

I wonder if you see any irony in the contrast between your constant cockroach insults and claimed concern for Iraqi civilians.

Don’t worry I will take pride in being the smartest cockroach on the planet, to my knowledge there have never been cockroaches that could write (in any language).

All the best to you my little saviour of Iraqi lives! 🫶