MisterFrog

Literally Nineteen Eighty-Four

https://lemmy.world/post/21049926

Literally Nineteen Eighty-Four - Lemmy.World

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/21049862 [https://lemmy.world/post/21049862] > The only numbers I will ever spell are one and zero, and only when using them as a pronoun, or for emphasis, respectively. > > Is there ever a reason to not to use symbols when dealing with numbers? Why would “fourteen whatevers” ever be preferable to “14 whatevers”. It’s just so much easier to read numbers as symbols, not spelled out. > > (Caveat, not including multipliers, like “273 billion”).

Oct 20, 2024 at 6:40amWeb
Show threadJusticeForPorygonOct 20, 2024

I spell out numbers when I want to emphasize them.

Take George Orwell for example:

“Nineteen Eighty-Four” has a lot more of a punch to it than just “1984.”

Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024

Yeah haha, this is why it came to my mind. In this case it’s a title, so not really for the purpose of being used as a number.

Though, I suppose I didn’t specify this

Show threadTar_AlcaranOct 20, 2024
I used to work in a library, and I hate this. We used to have both a “2001: a space Odyssey” and a “two thousand and one: a space oddesey”, sorted based on the spelling.
Show threadJusticeForPorygonOct 20, 2024
Isn’t that part of the reason we have Dewey/LoC system?
Show threadTar_AlcaranOct 20, 2024
Those are for academic books, not novels. And you’d still sort everything within a category alphabetically by author and then by title (usually)
Show threadJusticeForPorygonOct 20, 2024

I found Larry Flynt’s autobiography at my university’s library using the LCCN system.

Then again that’s a University library so it might be different.

Show threadNeatNitOct 20, 2024
There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes it ends up being “between five and 15” which is psychotic.
Show threadLH0ezVTOct 20, 2024
I somehow have “spell out if less than 13” burned in my mind from somewhere in middle school. No idea if it is right, but so far it has worked.
Show threadEheranOct 20, 2024
Any number that I write down is a number. I am not writing novels, the numbers I write down are supposed to be easy you find. You look through the document to find numbers, that is easy to do.
Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024
Yeah I’m with you on this. I’m not sure if this was clear in the meme (I am an engineer), but I think the style guides can go shove it. I’m always going to write the symbols, not spell it out.
Show threadlugalOct 20, 2024
Nein
Show threadTar_AlcaranOct 20, 2024

Caveat, not including multipliers, like “273 billion”

You mean 273e9?

Show threaddirkgentleOct 20, 2024
More like 273G in engineering.
Show threadfunkless_eckOct 20, 2024
TIL engineers use gazillion
Show threadFuglyDuckOct 20, 2024
It’s a highly technical term for “lots and lots.”
Show threadTar_AlcaranOct 20, 2024
I’ve never seen that outside of videogames
Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024

Only if you have a unit.

273 GW 👍

Else, looks kind weird, to my eyes anyway. But fair point haha

Show threadXavienthOct 20, 2024

Euros count as a unit 😏

3.5 G€

Ok, while I’m being facetious, let’s do it for dollars too. G$3.5… oh that’s horrible!

Show threadmarcosOct 20, 2024

Too bad people underuse it.

Separating the prefixes from the unities is very useful even in calculations where both are there.

Show threadMisterFrogOct 21, 2024

You do you, but this is a big no-no from my point of view.

For example separating the prefix m from mm would be rather confusing, and look like another unit.

You can, however, put 10^x wherever you like 👍

Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024

I’ll allow billion, but personally my preference is using powers of 10 or unit prefixes.

Just I’m not gonna be mad about the newspaper writing 3.5 billion dollars.

Show threadmarcosOct 20, 2024

Unless that number means something different from US$ 3.5e9.

If you are one of those people that think your country uses the other “billion”, just don’t.

Show threadMisterFrogOct 21, 2024
Touche, yeah, I’d totally be on board if everyone just uses $3.5*10⁹ or $3.5e9. Good luck getting it catch on outside eng/science circles though haha
Show threadtiramichuOct 20, 2024

Context is everything, IMO.

In engineering work numbers should always be digits. In prose numbers should be spelled out.

Breakfast at the Thompson’s was a busy affair; twelve eggs and six rounds of toast for their three sets of boistrous twins.

Breakfast at the Thompson’s was a busy affair; 12 eggs and 6 rounds of toast for their 3 sets of boistrous twins.

To me it’s pretty clear which of those reads better and more naturally as prose; digits really ‘jump out’ on the page, and while that is great for engineering texts, it is incongruent and distracting for prose.

Show threadhglmanOct 20, 2024
yeah the first, we don’t need letters when we have numbers
Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024

Yeah that’s fair. I personally prefer the first one, but I can see how it makes sense to not use digits there.

+1 ∆ for you (change my view points, a thing from r/changemyview)

Show threadlengauOct 20, 2024
Somewhat relevant to your example, recipes should have numbers in digits too. (But then again recipes are basically an engineering text.)
Show threadtiramichuOct 20, 2024
Cooking is just applied chemistry, after all.
Show threadmsageOct 21, 2024
I’ve seen Breaking Bad, yes
Show threadexasperationOct 20, 2024

recipes are basically an engineering text

I would love to see more systematic recipe formats.

Around 15-20 years ago there was a website called “Cooking for Engineers” that used a table format for recipes that was pretty clever, and a very useful diagram for how to visualize the steps (at least for someone like me). I don’t think he ever updated the site to be mobile friendly but you can see it here:

Cheesecake
Dirty Rice

He describes the recipe in a descriptive way, but down at the bottom it lists ingredients and how they go together in a chart that shows what amounts to use, what ingredients go into a particular step, what that step is, and how the product of that step feeds into the next step.

Cheesecake, Plain New York Style - Recipe File - Cooking For Engineers

Step by step recipe instructions for cheesecake, plain new york style complete with photographs and reader comments and discussion

Show threadbarsoapOct 20, 2024

1/2 pound (225 g)

What kind of insanity is this a pound is 500g.

2 cups (390 g) rice

Your cups weigh 195g a piece? Reasonable for stoneware, I guess. But why are you telling me and what does it have to do with the mass of rice?

Show threadcaptainlezbianOct 21, 2024
Oh damn that’s a sensical format. I love it and may put my recipes in it once I start writing them properly
Show threadSc00terOct 20, 2024
In your example tho, you want those numbers to stand out. The reason the affair was busy, was because of the numbers. You want the numbers to jump out, because that’s the important detail.
Show threadtiramichuOct 20, 2024

I appreciate your point, but here’s why I don’t agree with it.

In fiction writing, the ideal case is that the words themselves slide neatly out of the way and become invisible, leaving only a picture in the reader’s mind. Generally speaking, anything distracting is thefefore counter-productive for fiction. Strange fonts and strange typesetting, while interesting, take the reader out of the prose. There’s a reason almost every fiction book you pick up from the shelf uses Garamond.

In an engineering context, remembering “12 eggs, 6 toast” is probably the most important thing, and numeric digits assist in that. In fiction however it doesn’t matter if, by the next page, the reader has forgotten exactly how many eggs there were; the important aspect is to convey the sense of a large and chaotic family, and the impression is more important than the detail.

Thats why although the numbers are important for setting the scene, we really don’t want them to jump out. We don’t want anything at all to have undue prominence, because the reader needs to process the paragraph as a cohesive whole, and remember the scene not the numbers.

Show threadMechaguanaOct 20, 2024
00, 01, 10 there i did it
Show threadPhoenix3875Oct 20, 2024
Spell out numbers under 10, but not when it’s divisible by three or five.
Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024
Hahaha, of course, it makes so much sense now
Show threadEiriOct 20, 2024

What kills me is when people will mix the two in a single context.

“Between eight and 13 percent”

NO. If you’re writing one number in digits, you need to write them all the same way.

Show threadMisterFrogOct 20, 2024
Oh damn, that is some nails on a chalkboard level stuff.
Show threadmosiacmangoOct 20, 2024

This kills me, but its not as bad as the habit of new articles/print authors to switch between first and last names of the same person within a few sentences.

They will introduce Jeff Snoms, and then refer to them has “Jeff” and “Snoms” interchangeably for no discernable reason. It gets really maddening when they are doing it with 3 or 4 people, so suddenly the story has 2x as many characters involved.

Show threadi_love_FFTOct 20, 2024
Wait till you read russian novels, where everyone’s got 3 names and 2 official nickname everyone is expected to know…
Show threadlseifOct 21, 2024
not to mention the fact that it’s written in russian!
Show threadZwiebelOct 20, 2024
But unlike eight 13 is above ten
Show threadftbdOct 20, 2024
But 8% and 13% are both below 10
Show threadRisingSwellOct 20, 2024

So is 999%

And I’ve just learned percent is under two layers of keyboard menus so that’s just fantastic.

Show threadZwiebelOct 21, 2024
Do you write thirteen per cent?
Show threadKoalaUnknownOct 20, 2024

Sometimes is actually better to mix them.

Example from Purdue Owl:

Unclear: The club celebrated the birthdays of 6 90-year-olds who were born in the city.

Clearer: The club celebrated the birthdays of six 90-year-olds who were born in the city.

Show threadEiriOct 21, 2024
How is that unclear?
Show threadlseifOct 21, 2024
its a little ableist…
Show threadDreamButtOct 20, 2024
I do this to iterate people
Show threadlseifOct 21, 2024
they must find it quite repetitive…
Show threadDreamButtOct 21, 2024
God damnit. Ya know what. I’m not fixing it
Show threadsubtextOct 20, 2024

In general, use numerals to express numbers 10 and above, and use words to express numbers zero through nine.

Example given:

students were in the third, sixth, eighth, 10th, and 12th grades

Your example does not follow the style guide and is an example of when to use digits

Percentages 50% 75%–80%

If you’re a professional writer, you should be following the style guide and this is explicitly spelled out by the APA.

apastyle.apa.org/…/numerals

Show threadbarsoapOct 20, 2024
The German standard is to write out everything up to 12 and as English also doesn’t say one-teen and two-teen that’s how I always did it. (why not tenty-one btw? be consistent your numbers are all weird)
Show threadbrown567Oct 20, 2024
Three point one four one five nine two six five three five eight nine seven nine three two three eight four six
Show threadBodePlotHoleOct 20, 2024

Engineer here.

Typically when I type out professional emails or documents that contain numerical values, I write out the number followed by the digits in brackets if it is ten [10] or below for cases of amount, unless I am listing out the counts of items, then I only use digits.

“The updated electrical design will require three [3] new, pad-mount 500kVA transformers to replace the three [3] existing 225kVA transformers,each located on floors four, five, and six.”

Show threadMisterFrogOct 21, 2024

Can I ask why, though? I’m also an engineer and I just never spell it out, if I can avoid it (so far, luckily, haven’t had push back since I’m on delivery and not proposals or anything like that.)

To me, it’s just more annoying to read it as words, and no matter what you do, mistakes can still happen, including when it’s spelled out.

Just my 2 cents.

Show threadBodePlotHoleOct 21, 2024
I work in MEP and our emails are always considered legal documents as they can be used as evidence if ever we are taken to court. So we always treat them very technical and try to over explain everything so clients/plan reviewers/contractors can’t misinterpret. It’s kind of an old school thing, but the head of our department is an old school guy.
Show threadlseifOct 21, 2024
u mean your “2¢”…
Show threadRediphileOct 21, 2024
Ur*