Marco RogersSep 17, 2024
Okay. I don't really wanna start a fight today. But at some point we're gonna talk about how the last 10 years has seen software developers pushing for premature promotion into Senior or Staff titles. And one of the ways they try to demonstrate that they deserve these promotions is by doing unnecessary "Arkiteksure".
https://phpc.social/@afilina/113153763726491625
🇺🇦 Anna Filina (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Almost every day, I see microservices that should have definitely not been microservices. Almost every time, it's a big bad of mud with extra complexity. You can't just split things into random smaller things, slap HTTP in between and call it architecture. In almost every case, cleaning up a monolith would have yielded better outcomes.

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Show threadMarco RogersSep 17, 2024

There are a few spicy things here. So I want to unpack a few things just so folks don't misunderstand me. (You can feel free to be mad as long as it's about the right thing)

First, I said "premature promotion". I know a lot of people are going to wonder what that means. I'll try to state it clearly and directly. Before the bottom fell out of the market, devs could make a lot of money by getting raises and promotions. Part of the way to get that was by raising your level by any means necessary.

Show threadMarco RogersSep 17, 2024
I believe we have been seeing an overinflation of levels/titles for a while now. This is mostly because devs were in high demand. They agitate to be "Senior" after only a few years of working. For better or worse, many companies have been making this concession in order to retain people. (whether it actually worked is another convo). But the knock on effects have been severe. "Staff" title has come into vogue as the new "Senior". And the expectations of Senior have been greatly decreased.
Show threadPaul Houle
@polotek how does this related to the split between "big tech" and the rest of the industry? If you are working for a startup with 20 or so employees there is not a lot of room for titles even though the most junior position could come with the responsibility to "do whatever it takes"; big tech has all sort of pathological practices such as stack ranking, OKRs, bloated process and technology, ...
Sep 17, 2024 at 10:52pmWeb
Show threadPaul HouleSep 17, 2024
@polotek "juniors" on the other hand report that the bottom has fallen out of the hiring market, the last person anyone wants to hire in fall 2024 is a graduate from a bootcamp or run of the mill CS program; entry level positions now look for a "senior" they aren't willing to put effort into developing people (which "senior" people would do in a healthy organization)
Show threadMarco RogersSep 17, 2024
@UP8 for what it's worth, most of my experience is in startups. This is absolutely happening there as well. Startups get away with it for longer by just not having a career ladder at all. But as soon as they do, they feel the same pressure.
Show threadPaul HouleSep 18, 2024
@polotek in platoon-sized startups you get the role based on when you entered not on being good at the job; eng teams can get some stuff done even if the eng. manager doesn’t know how long the build takes or has a meeting and tells you about a bunch of conventions we follow and we also do code review but then when you look at the code those conventions aren’t followed even though is the job of the manager that process is in place, followed and changed if it doesn’t work
Show threadMarco RogersSep 18, 2024
@UP8 I love when people shit on managers all the way up until something is happening that they think should be fixed. Managers can't make people follow conventions. Their only levers are firing people and not giving people promotions. Engineers don't get fired that often. And most of the time, they are willing to take the promotion risk to not to do things they don't wanna do.
Show threadPaul HouleSep 18, 2024

@polotek I think that's a pessimistic view; in 2024 "voice" seems to be missing from most people's version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty

My current manager really does look at my code and send things back he doesn't believe in; certainly our code doesn't reflect all our ideals (test coverage is great for security code, poor for React where a "simple" test seems to take 4 sec to run) but there is not the complete disconnect from reality I've seen in many places.

Exit, Voice, and Loyalty - Wikipedia

Show threadMarco RogersSep 18, 2024
@UP8 it doesn't have anything to do with being pessimistic. And it's not about what your manager does or does not do. It's about what you do. If your manager asks you to fix the code, and you don't agree, what do you expect to happen?
Show threadPaul HouleSep 18, 2024
@polotek other areas seem so much more mature; they are building a building out my window and they have enough sense of schedule that they can schedule the rental of a big-ass crane when they need it; there are various structures such as trade unions, occupational licensing, etc.; I've seen places in industries such as food service and grocery stores where management cultivates espirit de corps and others that don't; just setting a good example is powerful
Show threadMarco RogersSep 18, 2024
@UP8 do you know what unions are for? And why they exist? I'm just not sure what world you're describing.
Show threadPaul HouleSep 18, 2024
@polotek unions do a few different things; the trade unions (and various unions in Hollywood) not only stick up for members but also train them and also stand for their professionalism (go to the union hall and get as many grips as you need) Unions get good pensions and job security for experienced teachers but don't do a lot for the emotional stress; in the software field there are no unions but things would be different if there were
Show threadPaul HouleSep 18, 2024
@polotek the cases that bother me are where the manager tells me I can't fix the code and we have to soldier on; there was that time I put in a ticket about my 40 minute build and had to explain how this helps the customer and I said "the customer would have had the product 6 months ago if I had a 5 minutes build"; i did get it to 20 minutes and managed to ship two major revisions despite this
Show threadMarco RogersSep 18, 2024
@UP8 if you just want to talk about what bothers you personally, that's fine. But you don't really need me for that. Like I said, people love to shit on managers.