Cory DoctorowAug 12, 2024

ngl, I didn't realize just how toxic German anti-anti-semitism was until a German gentile called me - a Jew - an antisemite on the basis that criticizing the finance sector was "structurally antisemitic"

https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats

The Strange Logic of Germany’s Antisemitism Bureaucrats

An army of antisemitism commissioners was supposed to help Germany atone for its past. Critics say it is evidence of a memory effort gone haywire.

Jewish Currents
Show threadSchafstelze 🎗🖤Aug 13, 2024
@pluralistic i'm curious, what were your exact words about the finance sector?
Show threadCory DoctorowAug 13, 2024
@Dingsextrem https://pluralistic.net/2024/08/05/rugged-individuals/#misleading-by-analogy
Pluralistic: Leveraged buyouts are not like mortgages (05 Aug 2024) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Show threadSchafstelze 🎗🖤Aug 13, 2024
@pluralistic actually, some stuff can be seen as antisemitic indeed.
First, the picture. It is a version of a common antisemitic trope (compare pic below)
Second, the distinction in "productive" vs. "grubbing" capital is a continuation of "the money-lending jew" trope dating back for centuries.
Third, from all capitalists doing shady businesses, you name exactly one (1) as example: Zuckerberg.
I give you the benefit of doubt if it was conscious, but i cannot blame others who see intent.
Show threadCory DoctorowAug 13, 2024

@Dingsextrem

> First, the picture. It is a version of a common antisemitic trope (compare pic below)

No, it isn't. It's a caricature of the Gentile banker JP Morgan, from a 110-year-old editorial cartoon about the first billion-dollar bank merger.

Just because antisemites depict *Jews* as dominating the world, that doesn't make *all* images of *all* forces - abstract or personified - that dominate the world antisemitic.

Show threadCybermatron
@pluralistic The problem when you grew up in Germany and went through its (re)education system from the 70s onwards, is that it is often a hop, skip and a jump in your brain from George Grosz’ “Pillars of Society” critique of the Nazis and capitalism in the 1920s to the Nazi’s own antisemitic imagery. Often, the only difference is how the nose of the “fat banker” is drawn (which is why the goblins in Harry Potter quite justifiably attracted criticism for antisemitism).
Aug 20, 2024 at 8:32amWeb
Show threadCybermatronAug 20, 2024
@pluralistic Not trying to excuse the “jewsplaining” here. Just saying that, as a German, I can relate to the reaction to the image you used. I have that too wrt a lot of anti-capitalist imagery that triggers a memory of the antisemitic imagery I was asked to analyse in school (leading to hours researching the origin of an image). The differences are often smaller than I would like and - again, as a German - I am worried about people being conditioned to seeing one by use of the other.
Show threadCybermatronAug 20, 2024
@pluralistic Of course, in an ideal world, people should be able to distinguish between the two. But if I’m finding this difficult despite having had to study it in three different subjects in school (history, art history, and social science) I’m not convinced that other people will do any better. Particularly not in these days of GenAI mash-ups.
Show threadIanMoore3000Aug 20, 2024
@TheCybermatron @pluralistic I know what you mean. During the financial crisis here (Ireland) some of the left's denunciation of "fatcat bankers" did feel like it was unconsciously recycling unpleasant tropes.
Show threadSandrew Aug 20, 2024
@TheCybermatron @pluralistic This is the difficulty with anti-hate speech laws, so much is open to interpretation, including honest misunderstanding, & we've seen hatemongers choose their words to stay just on the allowed side of rules.
It's why I think lawmakers need to err on the side of allowing speech.
We mustn't stop legitimate criticism, for example the Israeli government's violation of human rights, such criticism isn't bigotry even if bigots use those real issues to hit their 'enemy'.