Mastodawn

Flying Squid Aug 19, 2024

I wish we lived in a post-scarcity Star Trek world where there’s no money except there is but not in the Federation except when it IS in the Federation and no one has any needs except when they do.

https://lemmy.world/post/18818521

I wish we lived in a post-scarcity Star Trek world where there’s no money except there is but not in the Federation except when it IS in the Federation and no one has any needs except when they do. - Lemmy.World

I’m glad there is no money in the Federation. Unless you count credits. Which are not money. Unless you use thousands of them to pay the Barzans. Or give them to Starfleet officers to buy things like tribbles and drinks at Quark’s.

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TheGrandNagus Aug 19, 2024

While Federation Credits are money, I was under the impression they were only really used when you want to buy stuff outside of the Federation from sellers who don’t share the same socialist society that the Federation has. On a Federation world I believe they wouldn’t have much value.

DS9 was not a Federation station, and the Bajorans were clearly ok with a capitalist presence. Giving Starfleet personnel a stipend seems pretty unavoidable if they want their officers to be able to partake in practically anything on DS9.

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Flying Squid Aug 19, 2024

But that gives them inherent value and would end up being traded internally. And then people would buy up stuff from outside the Federation and charge people in the Federation for those things in credits so that those people don’t have to travel off-planet to get those desirable things.

And as I said, they gave thousands of credits to the Barzans, so credits are obviously worth something when exchanged back to the Federation too.

On top of that, in TOS, there is a scene where someone wagers with credits (conceptually, but it basically sounded like a thing). To add to that, credits were being used on Space Station K-7, a Federation space station, or Uhura would not have been able to purchase a Tribble and Cyrano Jones wouldn’t have been there selling them.

I’m afraid we will have to accept that Federation economics makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

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TheGrandNagus Aug 19, 2024

But that gives them inherent value

Yes.

and would end up being traded internally.

Maybe. But pretty much everything is provided for free on Earth (and presumably elsewhere in the Federation?), so while it has value, I imagine the vast majority wouldn’t care.

And then people would buy up stuff from outside the Federation and charge people in the Federation for those things in credits so that those people don’t have to travel off-planet to get those desirable things.

If replicators and such can provide basically everything, you’d have very little desire to earn money and buy things.

I don’t really remember anything about the Barzans or the giving of credits to them, so I can’t really talk about that.

And as for TOS, yeah, TOS is all over the place. They also have hundreds of mirror Earths, a German Nazi planet, Gangster Earth, etc. the whole series is a little all over the place and contradictory.

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Flying Squid

Maybe. But pretty much everything is provided for free on Earth (and presumably elsewhere in the Federation?), so while it has value, I imagine the vast majority wouldn’t care.

It’s also established that there are things which can’t be replicated, or not replicated properly, so they have to buy those.

And we can’t just say, “well TOS just doesn’t count” because it’s canon. Very established canon in many, many ways. And Lower Decks especially has gone out of its way to make everything people don’t like about Star Trek part of the canon.

As far as the Barzans-

Premier Bhavani of the Barzanian Planetary Republic hosted the bidding parties aboard the USS Enterprise-D. During the negotiations, Mendoza represented the Federation’s interests and presented their proposal, including: a lump sum payment of 1,500,000 Federation credits would be made upon conclusion of agreement, 100,000 credits per Barzanian year thereafter, the Barzanian Planetary Republic would be an equal partner in proceeds of operational revenues of venture, Barzanian personnel would be employed as principal operating staff of ground-based support facility, long-term economic, technical, and educational assistance would be provided by United Federation of Planets, and Barzan II would benefit from increased planetary security due to protection by Starfleet, with a potential agreement term that would have expired stardate 53000.

memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Barzan_wormhole

Credits obviously have significant value.

Barzan wormhole

The Barzan wormhole was a wormhole with one end, or terminus, initially located near the planet Barzan II in the Alpha Quadrant and one end that moved unpredictably to points through the galaxy, including the Gamma and Delta Quadrants, stabilized by intense energy fields within itself, until 2373 when its Alpha Quadrant end began to shift as well. (TNG: "The Price", VOY: "False Profits") The wormhole became visible due to radiation buildup in the accretion disk, whose visible brightness was brie

Memory Alpha

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TheGrandNagus Aug 19, 2024

It’s also established that there are things which can’t be replicated, or not replicated properly, so they have to buy those.

True. Although this is usually stuff needed for maintaining starships, for plot reasons. Not stuff that a random person might want.

And we can’t just say, “well TOS just doesn’t count” because it’s canon.

I’m not saying it doesn’t count, just that it’s contradictory. You can probably point to parts of TOS that back up or dismantle either point. I wouldn’t really say your point earlier proves they use money on Earth or widely within the Federation, though.

Barzans…

Ok, looking at your summary and your link, it says they aren’t part of the Federation. So where’s the inconsistency?

Of course the Federation, at a governance level, deals with money when they have to work with Capitalist governments. But that doesn’t mean that society within the Federation is a capitalist society.

Credits obviously have significant value.

To some, yes. To a random person on Earth, almost certainly not. They have very little need to spend them, since they can get virtually anything they want free of charge.