breakfastmtnJul 15, 2024

JD Vance opposes military aid, NATO membership for Ukraine. He's now Trump's VP pick

https://lemmy.ca/post/25111191

JD Vance opposes military aid, NATO membership for Ukraine. He's now Trump's VP pick - Lemmy.ca

Vance is one of Trump’s most vocal supporters and an outspoken critic of U.S. aid to Ukraine. . . . Vance has said that it would be “completely irresponsible” for Ukraine to join NATO. He has also argued for the U.S. to focus solely on preventing Chinese expansion, even if that means sacrificing sovereign Ukrainian lands to Russia. “Any peace settlement is going to require some significant territorial concessions from Ukraine, and you’re gonna have a peace deal, because that’s the only way out of the conflict,” Vance said in February. MBFC [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/kyiv-independent-bias/] Archive [https://archive.is/rJU2P]

Show threadjimmydoreisaleftyJul 15, 2024

I agree that Ukraine has lost land due to the US/NATO stopping Russia-Ukraine peace deals and talks in 2022.

I am anti-war, so peace deals should be at the forefront; war is a Last Resort[1].

Many on the ‘far left’ and ‘far right’ say:

NATO is a terrorist organization.

[1] Papa Roach - Last Resort 2020 (Explicit) [03:22 | Rap, Rock, USA, In English, Rap Metal, Mental Health, Metal, Alternative Metal, Nu-Metal] youtu.be/D2Jl27lYExU

Papa Roach - Last Resort 2020 (Explicit)

YouTube
Show threadIllecorsJul 15, 2024
What peace deals were those? Must’ve missed them.
Show threadCableMonsterJul 16, 2024
It was a peace deal where Russia would have withdrawn to Feb 23 2022 positions, hostilities would stop and Ukraine would agree not to join NATO. Boris Johnson flew in and said that NATO would give them money to keep fighting. Fast forward two years later and we have tens of thousands more dead Ukrainians and much more lost territory, and a terrible negotiating position.
Show threadWomble
Please cite an official Russian source putting forward that offer.
Jul 16, 2024 at 9:33amWeb
Show threadCableMonsterJul 16, 2024
You want me to look it up just so you can say “THATS A TERRIBLE SOURCE!!!”. I am going to pass.
Show threadWombleJul 16, 2024
So pulled out your arse then, gottcha.
Show threadCableMonsterJul 16, 2024
If world wide news is considered my arse, then sure thing bro.
Show threadWombleJul 16, 2024
I mean, if it was world wide news surely it would easy to get a reputable source like AP reporting it?
Show threadCableMonsterJul 16, 2024
Feel free to do you own research!
Show threadWombleJul 16, 2024
So again, source: Arse
Show threadjordanlundJul 16, 2024

I mean it’s not hard to Google “Boris Johnson Ukraine Deal”:

theguardian.com/…/boris-johnson-ukraine-2022-peac…

“As Charap and Radchenko show, the reality is a bit more complicated. Johnson didn’t directly sabotage a ceasefire deal in spring 2022; indeed, there was no deal ready to be signed between Russia and Ukraine. The two sides hadn’t agreed on territorial issues, or on levels of military armaments permitted after the war. Ukraine’s position during the negotiations necessitated security guarantees that western states were hesitant to provide. And there were domestic political questions inside Ukraine related to Russian demands about “denazification” to contend with.”

So, no, it’s not as cut and dried as CableMonster makes it out to be. There was no fixed “deal” ready to go, at best it was a negotiation.

Did Boris Johnson really sabotage peace talks between Russia and Ukraine? The reality is more complicated

A recent study shows the reasons the 2022 talks failed are more nuanced than critics suggest, says Emma Ashford of the Stimson Center, Washington DC

The Guardian
Show threadWombleJul 16, 2024

As Charap and Radchenko show, the reality is a bit more complicated. Johnson didn’t directly sabotage a ceasefire deal in spring 2022; indeed, there was no deal ready to be signed between Russia and Ukraine. The two sides hadn’t agreed on territorial issues, or on levels of military armaments permitted after the war. Ukraine’s position during the negotiations necessitated security guarantees that western states were hesitant to provide. And there were domestic political questions inside Ukraine related to Russian demands about “denazification” to contend with.

So no, they hadnt agreed to revert to the feb-22 borders, that was still a matter of contension.

Show threadjordanlundJul 16, 2024

Correct, but I’m also going to lean on the side of Cablemonster either mis-remembering the facts, or mis-understanding the facts, rather than mis-representing the facts.

The Guardian article I found is presented as a fact check, so the idea that Boris Johnson killed a peace deal is clearly something that’s been floating around in the zeigeist.

Show threadWombleJul 16, 2024
Fair enough, personaly I find it hard to give the benefit of the doubt to people from that instance.
Show threadjordanlundJul 16, 2024
Well, I have the benefit of having heard the same thing about Boris Johnson and just not bothering to run it down until now, so it doesn’t surprise me that someone could hear it and uncritically parrot it. :) I mean, that happens online ALL the time!