PugJesusHow many goddamn wars over this do we need
EherNichtYou don’t get to be a German and not feel pain - a lot of pain.
But not yours to bare my German brother from across the pond.
Germany has learned ( IMO) that while nazi party rose in Germany. Germany isnt the Nazi party. The United States never learned the lessons from this historical past.
Danke
DigitalprimateWell said. And Fck AfD. You guys keep fighting the good fight.
(bear)
As an American, you’re far ahead of many of my countrymen
Wait till OP learns about what America did to non-white people in its’ history.
The Nuremberg race laws were inspired by JimCrow and were actually less restrictive.
BigFigClassic whataboutism
How is the fact that america was built on white supremacy and literally inspired Nazi policy whataboutism?
Because that’s not what we’re talking about in this thread. You’re bringing up other atrocities and moving the spot light off of the topic at hand
The post is about the US being an antifascist nation, while it has a very fascist-adjacent history.
CIA backed coups in south America would be whataboutism. How the US inspired the Nazis: not so much.
The history of the US isn’t “fascist-adjacent;” we’ve had our heads ALL THE WAY UP THAT ASS since the beginning and ongoing. Most of the founding fathers were worried that an “excess of democracy” would be bad for business (season 4 of “Scene on Radio,” sceneonradio.org/category/season-4/page/2/).
The US’ crusade against all things vaguely left of center goes even deeper than I ever thought. It’s a bit surprising how many of the most dreadful dictators in the past 100 years were graduates of the School of the Americas and/or installed by the CIA. See: “The Jakarta Method” by Vincent Bevins.
Prunebutt is right here: the US was, at best, laissez-faire about Nazis until it wasn’t. Nazis were good for business. I’ve read a lot on the topic, but can’t find any good citations at the moment. This is an accessible, albeit lightweight entry point: time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/. But listen to just about year of “Behind the Bastards,” and it’s a deep rabbit hole of how closely tied to fascism the US had always been.
Prunebutt is right here: the US was, at best, laissez-faire about Nazis until it wasn’t.
Oh, I guess I must have imagined the Roosevelt administration being stridently anti-Nazi from the beginning, and the mass protests whenever Nazis showed up in the US.
Oh, I guess I must have imagined
Well, I guess you must have been there, if you didn’t imagine it. /s
Clarification: that was a joke and not supposed to be a proper addition to the argument.
Todd BonzalezYou sure are spending a lot of energy defending literal Nazis. Unless you have an actual point to make, you might want it considering shutting the fuck up.
Where am I defending Nazis? Fuck Nazis. Both the european and the european colonizer kind.
Oh, I guess I must have imagined the Roosevelt administration being stridently anti-Nazi from the beginning, and the mass protests whenever Nazis showed up in the US. Silly me.
You are correct that you are imagining this, because the US’ relationship to Germany was definitely complex. Roosevelt was far from “stridently anti-Nazi” until Kristallnacht (1938 Nov 9), at which point Roosevelt recalled the US ambassador to Germany and allowed the 12,000 visiting Germans to remain in the US. However, despite allowing those Germans to stay, he did not push to increase immigration quotas.
Prior to Kristallnacht, the Roosevelt administration, Hollywood, petroleum companies, and much of the manufacturing base were very pro-Nazi Germany. The administration assisted Germany in circumventing boycotts while US petroleum companies provided fuel and oil despite European sanctions. Sources: Robert Evans (“Behind the Bastards”), Rafael Medoff (“Roosevelt’s Pre-war Attitude Toward the Nazis”)
I have a pet theory that facism is very much an inability to look in the mirror but when someone else does it it’s a different story. The first country out of the countries assumed to be… Let’s say predominantly assumed Christian in heritage and treat each other as peers - the ones who serve as the closest analog of mutually assumed standards - becomes the first adopter of Facism. That might be the actual shock that shuts down facism elsewhere. Wherever does it first seems to me likeliest to become the example that causes people on the fence to snap out of it.
Pre WWII there were facist groups on the rise everywhere. While it’s possible it may have been more in reaction to Germany’s sudden expansionism the drop off of those who were heading into moderate support towards facist groups could have been essentially just realizing what your ideology looks like fully complete from the outside for the first time and being repulsed.
I have zero anything to back this up. Maybe it’s more just a hope than anything.
snooggumsHow the US inspired the Nazis: not so much.
…and then we fought a war over it. Do you need to be introduced to a calendar?
As if the US was the main character of WW2. How arrogant do you have to be?
When did operation paperclip occur, again?
Operation Paperclip: when we imported Nazis to run our government. Of course. Silly me. That’s why the civil rights movement had its greatest successes and prominence right after WW2, because of all the fascists we decided to empower.
Now that’s what I call whataboutism.
For pointing out that the mentioned operation has absolutely nothing to do with the mentioned issue - the US’s supposed embrace of fascism post-WW2?
“What about the fact that your point is completely irrelevant” isn’t quite the usual definition of “Whataboutism”, but you do you.
I didn’t say anything about any “ideological embrace” operation paperclip shows that the US’ supposed anti-fascist ideology wasn’t quite as thorough as you make it seem.
I didn’t say anything about any “ideological embrace”
Oh, okay, so you’re walking back your prior claims. Cool. Glad we’re in agreement that claiming the US as fascist or ‘fascist-adjacent’ post-WW2 is ridiculous.
operation paperclip shows that the US’ supposed anti-fascist ideology wasn’t quite as thorough as you make it seem.
“Abducting specialists is fascism, and the more specialists you abduct, the more fascism it is”
The stuff about the civil rights movement was the whataboutism part.
“No, you CANNOT use examples of increasing liberalism in the US to counter claims of fascism in the US, that’s whataboutism”
Okay, buddy. You have fun with that.
“Abducting specialists is fascism, and the more specialists you abduct, the more fascism it is”
Yeah. The high ranking Nazis recruited in operations Paperclip and Bloodstone which went on to enjoy comfortable lives and retirements in the US were “abducted”, sure. /s
Wow dude you missed the point entirely.
I love how you pretend that a huge portion of the US didn’t support and continue to support fascism and Nazis.
I mean you’re peak willful ignorance and obtuse.
I love how you pretend that a huge portion of the US didn’t support and continue to support fascism and Nazis.
Would you like to remind me about the support carried by the German-American Bund and the Silver Shirts, and compare that to literally any other political group in the US at the time?
(PROTIP: combined, they didn’t even have a tenth of the membership of the CPUSA, which, itself, was a minor player in American politics of the period)
Half the country didn’t want to fight the war, are you daft,? It took pearl harbor to even start to change minds.
That doesn’t make it whataboutism tho
Are you trying to debunk the idea that Nazis are bad?
I’m trying to debunk the idea that the US is fundamentally anti-fascist.
Nobody ever said it was. This was a call for anti-fascism.
If you want to argue down a call for action against Fascism, go for it, but don’t act surprised when people call you a Fascist for it.
If there’s a real point you wish to make, it’s lost in way you’ve presented it. Instead of being a miserable scold, you could have added to the conversation, but since feel that everything you post needs to be in the form of a rebuttal, it comes across as though you are trying to completely invalidate OP’s meme rather than add little color to it.
Everyone here already knows about America’s troubled history. You’re preaching to the choir. It really sounds like you’re defending Nazis by claiming that America is somehow the “real evil” when OP’s post can pretty succinctly be summarized as “Nazis Bad”.
We did fight Nazis in WWII, everything else notwithstanding, and we are going to have to do it again soon. We’re trying to figure out who is on what side, and with your attitude, you’re going to end up being an honorary fascist since you’re going to throw a semantic tantrum every time someone signals anti-fascism.
This was a call for anti-fascism.
… By way of national pride, forgetting the US’s “troubled” past. Trying to counter fascism with patriotism is a dangerous game.
Everyone here already knows about America’s troubled history. You’re preaching to the choir.
The responses seem too differ.
You’re awfully glib about a looming civil war.
Sure, the person disliking patriotism will be an “honorary fascist”. /s 🙄
forgetting the US’s “troubled” past
The Confederacy is right there. In the meme.
Are you even trying?
Like the confederacy was the only time the US was white supremacist. Ever heard of Nixon and how his war on drugs was just a strategy to criminalize black people (and leftists)?
I’m sorry the meme doesn’t acknowledge every crime of the USA in the space of one photo and three sentences?
You could have just not posted revisionist crap?
“Revisionism is when you point out that Nazis and Confederates were rejected by America in two brutal wars, and the more you point that out, the more revisionist it is”
That strawman device doesn’t get better with reuse, you know.
Revisionism is when you claim that white supremacy isn’t baked into the DNA of the USA.
Okay, buddy. You have fun with that.
I will
You’ve gone way into No True Scotsman territory. Your argument is fallacious, and pro-fascist.
I think you neither know what the true scotsman fallacy, nor fascism is.
Cool. I don’t care what you think, as you have been spouting absolutism all over the thread, and as Samuel Clemmons once said, opened your mouth and removed all doubt.
Lol, “absolutism”.
Wait until ButtHurt hears that that’s literally what we’re talking about and their ‘gotcha’ is meaningless bullshit.
It sure is, buddy. /s
These days, and especially with the continuing shift to the right in Europe, I’m repeatedly asking myself what the attractiveness of these ideologies is, that so many people again fall for them. They represent destruction not future. They do not have a plan for the future, they are only “against” everything good.
They contrugt an ideology where everything was great way back when foreign powers were jealous of our national heritage and destroyed everything. It’s a very easy to grasp and convenient myth, since your nation becomes the main character of history.
Nationalism/patriotism is very succeptible to falling for fascist ideology. Therefore, everyone waving their national flag with pride is sus to me.
SLVRDRGNYour last sentence especially hit it home for me. I’m not currently proud of America, and I myself would feel like a total jamoke waving around the US flag with a grin right now.
But I will vote and try my best to fight for a country that I can be proud of.
…one can support american ideals without supporting actions of the american state: it’s our choice which that flag represents…
…sadly, the fascists have so brazenly siezed the apparatus of the state that whenever i see its flag proudly unfurled these days, my first reaction is to associate its bearer with fascism…
Fascism preys on the ideas of regime change and stagnation. Physically, a government wishing to gather power through voters will promise new public works, a focus on workers, and the general embetterment of society. Ideologically, fascism promises a purging of those in power, those that lead the stagnation and bad working conditions that started the movement. They conveniently pin in on a group of people or a few undesirable groups to appeal to a large number of the population and then make a grab for power. Bad times and stagnation create fascism.
It provides easy answers.
You’re a good strong person. They’re bad people. All your problems are their fault
Most people love feeling like they’re part of a group.
GladiusBThey are looking for a community that accepts them. That’s why they are usually from broken poor white people with drug problems. Their parents are absent in many ways and are looking for somewhere to belong.
Same thing any “in group” feeds on: self esteem. If you feel powerless, or worthless, or rudderless, any group that makes you feel powerful, valuable, and effective is going to be very appealing. Conservatives (read: fascists) prey on this. They make it seem like joining them is brave, and important. And since their followers lack identity and purpose, their self worth becomes entangled with [in group], be it closeted fascism such as the American GOP, or flaming such as Q/proud boys/whatever. And since their identity and value depends on the perpetuation and proliferation of their in group, they willingly accept lies and falsehood. Pretty easy to gaslight someone who’s encouraging it.
Then when they wear their symbols of hate, or make shocking claims, or in anyway troll and grief society, up to and including dismantling democracy, they get a reaction. They’ve exerted their will on the world around them, and as such they feel powerful. The insidious bit is, even if the good guys win, with all their high falutin factual arguments and social programs, it just makes these sad people angier and feel worthless again. So they go right back to their pimps for some more sweet lies and marching orders.
How do I upvote a comment twice?
…i use the little star so i can find again it later…
Make more accounts
This is spot on and something I teach in social psychology. One thing that helps is increasing membership in other groups so that the dismantling of one group doesn’t fracture their self identity. Granted I usually teach this with more benign examples (e.g. if you’re a “good student” and get a bad grade, it hurts more depending on how important it is to your identity). But the idea is the same.
A few things you can look up though: cognitive dissonance, confirmation biases, contact hypothesis, and probably a few more. The funny thing is, social psychology as a discipline boomed after WW2 because people wanted to know why Nazis were Nazis. It’s only recently we also realized that social rejection uses the same parts of the brain as physical pain, though.
The biggest irony is they will always be worthless because of their shitty mentalities