schizoidmanProspect of low-priced Chinese EVs reaching US from Mexico poses threat to automakers
Pat_RiotOr , hear me out, what if US auto makers stop trying to force overpriced oversized trash on us? Maybe try to compete?
They get a lot of bribes from the oil industry. This is about sabotage, not competition.
BURN THE HERETIC
Wet blankets don’t burn well
Electric cars in the US are more expensive mostly due to higher costs of overhead. For example, we have a minimum wage, and China uses forced labor.
Good luck buying anything made in the US for less money than on AliExpress.
Edit: Is this really the same group of people that want US businesses to divest from Israel, defending products made with the slave labor of Uyghurs?
In Xinjiang, the government is the trafficker. Authorities use threats of physical violence, forcible drug intake, physical and sexual abuse, and torture to force detainees to work in adjacent or off-site factories or worksites producing garments, footwear, carpets, yarn, food products, holiday decorations, building materials, extractives, materials for solar power equipment and other renewable energy components, consumer electronics, bedding, hair products, cleaning supplies, personal protective equipment, face masks, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and other goods—and these goods are finding their way into businesses and homes around the world.
Wow, tell us how indoctrinated you are.
Do you mean informed?
In Xinjiang, the government is the trafficker. Authorities use threats of physical violence, forcible drug intake, physical and sexual abuse, and torture to force detainees to work in adjacent or off-site factories or worksites producing garments, footwear, carpets, yarn, food products, holiday decorations, building materials, extractives, materials for solar power equipment and other renewable energy components, consumer electronics, bedding, hair products, cleaning supplies, personal protective equipment, face masks, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and other goods—and these goods are finding their way into businesses and homes around the world.
state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/
In other words, the U.S. content of “Made in China” is about 55%. The fact that the U.S. content of Chinese goods is much higher than for imports as a whole is mainly due to higher retail and wholesale margins on consumer electronics and clothing than on most other goods and services.
www.frbsf.org/…/us-made-in-china/
It is simply more economical to use forced labor than to pay minimum wage. It results in lower price points on Chinese branded products, and higher margins on US branded products produced in China. This problem is not exclusive to automotive manufacturing, as illustrated in the above research article.
To be clear on my personal opinion, I’m not recommending US industry over foreign. I drive a Hyundai. I’m specifically speaking against Chinese industry, just as Biden’s tariffs are not applicable to imports aside from China.
Dude, there is just no way on earth that automakers are making razor thin margins on $80,000 F250 extended cab super duty pavement princesses that are basically just minivans in a trenchcoat.
You can buy a Nissan Leaf starting at $28k. It’s made in US, Japan, and Mexico.
Past tense. They are ending the production line this year. They just didn’t have the margin.
Next would be the Mini EV. It starts at $30k. Still far less than your $80k example.
Huh what 80k example?
I’m sorry. Same thread, different commenter. My mistake.
Greely’s EX 30 was going to sell for mid 30k. We can absolutely compete, we just would rather not.
Mention the 6Billion dollar stock buyback plan GM announced this month.
UnderpantsWeevilElectric cars in the US are more expensive mostly due to higher costs of overhead. For example, we have a minimum wage, and China uses forced labor.
:-/
Is this really the same group of people that want US businesses to divest from Israel, defending products made with the slave labor of Uyghurs?
Americans are just mad that we have a perfectly good exploitable population at home.
Inside the brutal reality of prison labor where U.S. inmates face injury and lost limbs to fuel major corporations’ supply chains
Nationwide, hundreds of thousands of prisoners are put to work every year, some of whom are seriously injured or killed after being given dangerous jobs with little or no training.
I agree. That’s also terrible. They work mostly in farming. If you can avoid these food brands, I suggest you do so.
There are plenty of automobiles manufactured in the US, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and the UK that don’t use forced labor. I also recommend supporting those factories instead of China.
Also, your second link about Chinese retirement has nothing to do with Uyghur slave labor.
Hidden prison labor web linked to foods from Target, Walmart
In a sweeping two-year investigation, The Associated Press found goods linked to prisoners wind up in the supply chains of everything from Frosted Flakes cereal and Ball Park hot dogs to Gold Medal flour and Coca-Cola. They are on the shelves of most supermarkets, including Kroger, Target and Whole Foods. They’re also exported. The prisoners who help produce these goods are disproportionately people of color. Some are sentenced to hard labor and forced to work – or face punishment – and are sometimes paid pennies an hour or nothing at all. They also are excluded from protections guaranteed to almost all other full-time workers, even when they are seriously injured or killed on the job. And it can be almost impossible for them to sue.
There are plenty of automobiles manufactured in the US, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and the UK
And they’re all complicit. BMW, Volkswagon, Jaguar Land Rover all source parts from China.
In fact, the entire US supply chain is reliant on Chinese parts.
Earlier this month, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) said it would be temporarily halting production at a plant in Kragujevac, Serbia due to a lack of parts from China, while Hyundai and Renault have done the same in South Korea.
You can whitewash your supply chain by slapping an western label on Chinese parts. But this isn’t demonstrating any kind of concern for labor rights or ethical insourcing. FFS, we won’t even let Volkswagon plants in Tennessee unionize.
Nevermind Uyghur slave labor. Americans can’t even bargain for better salaries. Its too much for our fragile economy to handle.
Senate report finds parts made with China's forced labor in cars by BMW, Jaguar Land Rover and VW
A Senate inquiry has found BMW, Jaguar Land Rover and Volkswagen have bought parts made by a Chinese company sanctioned under a 2021 law for using forced labor. The automakers have responded to a Senate report released Monday by saying they've taken action to bring their cars into compliance with the law. The Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act bans the entry of products made with forced labor in Xinjiang, where the Uyghur Muslim ethnic group has been persecuted for its religious and cultural beliefs. Lawmakers demand the law be strictly enforced and criticize the automakers for not adequately scrutinizing their supply chains.
That was true of those brands. They’ve since been pulling out of China, leaving abandoned factories that are now being used by the Chinese market. There are still plenty of other ethical options for automobiles.
Many nations are cracking down on imports related to Uyghur labor.
In December 2021, Congress passed, and President Biden signed the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act (UFLPA) – the strongest tool the United States or any other country has forged in the fight against the atrocities of forced labor.
They’ve since been pulling out of China
Firstly, no they haven’t. US trade with China has only ever increased year-over-year going back to the 1960s.
Secondly, our hunger for cheap labor is sending us to penal colonies across the rest of the Pacific Rim. This isn’t something that began or ended with a single factory in a single country.
Many nations are cracking down on imports related to Uyghur labor.
They’re not. The business is just being laundered through front companies.
Upon the review of the ASPI report, Skechers said it contacted senior management at Luzhou prior to conducting two additional audits of the factory — none of which revealed any indications of forced labor. Luzhou, however, did confirm that members of the Uyghur ethnic group did comprise a portion of its workforce but were employed under compliant terms and conditions.
Shoving thumbs in my ears and saying “I don’t see the non-compliance, its all fine actually!” and letting the provisions go completely unenforced.
And that’s before you get into direct sales through Ali Baba and Temu
Again, I agree, but my comment was about automobiles. You have the habit of misrepresenting my point.
boydcoddingtonwheels.com/car-companies-pulling-ou…
iwkoeln.de/…/juergen-matthes-competitive-pressure…
ft.com/…/d88955d4-2bc8-476e-9cdb-882ca3c3b10d
reuters.com/…/us-lawmakers-press-automakers-cut-r…
As for other consumer goods, Biden has expanded Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974 to include more imports.
ustr.gov/issue-areas/…/tariff-actions
Tariffs aren’t great solutions, but the only alternative would be outright banning. The latter would have a sudden and financially profound impact on American consumers.
Again, I agree, but my comment was about automobiles.
Nearly 40% of Honda’s automobile production took place in China in the last financial year.
Honda would continue to keep its supply chain in China for the domestic market in the world’s second-largest economy while building a separate one for markets outside of China, the Sankei said. It did not say where it got the information.
That’s not “pulling out of China”. That’s a sign of Chinese domestic automobile consumption rising.
You don’t want a giant ass pickup truck that drives like a tank, takes up 1.5 times the parking space and goes 8 miles on the gallon?
No, I want a light pickup from the 80s or 90s but with a warranty and a full size bed and no back seat. Y’know, something kinda utilitarian. A fucking Ranger is bigger now than an F-150 was in 2000. An F-150 is a goddamn SUV with a worthless 4 foot bed. What the hell is that good for?
FWIW, you can order a V6 regular cab F150 work truck with an 8-foot bed. Still costs $40k, but it exists.
Ranger and Maverick can both haul plywood sheets with a few 2x4 slats in the stamped slots on the side of the bed and some tiedowns.
☂️-they had decades to prepare for this. if the past is any indication they would rather milk that cow to death and act surprised when it isnt a viable long term strategy.
It’s not due to a lack of will. They can’t produce cars as cheaply because they’ve spent the last 50 years closing factories and buying back their own stock while China invested in their industrial capacity.
Flying SquidYeah well, fuck the American auto industry for not joining the 21st century.
It’s like when they dragged their feet making fuel efficient cars after the oil crisis
girlfreddyI remember that time, when American car makers screamed bloody murder because Honda was killing them. Good times.
Ya if they want to survive its time to adapt and compete. This is what complacency sets up and I don’t feel bad for them at all. They saw this coming and probably just sat there expecting a bailout.
This is what happens when old fucks hold onto power and don’t change with the times.
This is what happens when the one ring of profits rules them all. US automakers don’t give a shit about anything other than their bottom line.
Yeah, automakers pose a threat to automakers!
Something somethi free market blah blah blah.
Death to capitalism
Capitalism is clearly going to death us first.
Sounds like US automaker higher prices are the actual threat.
God forbid these parasites have to compete.
Z HORROR, HORROR, I TELL U
Are you arguing there’s no competition in the US or are you arguing that China should have to compete without the subsisides?
My thesis is that China's biz took state aid and made into something...
We provide state aid to our industry and they just sole that money, now that China is caught up, they are crying for more state aid.
Another example Intel, blows 50 billion on stoke buybacks, tax payer gives them 35 billion for fabs in US, Germany gives them 10 for one in Germany.
Clown capitalism right there.
For what it’s worth, a government can absolutely subsidized an industry in an attempt to capture a foreign market.
There’s a reason Japan and Korea have their own auto industries despite being next door to the largest manufacturing nation on earth, and it isn’t because they’re somehow making and distributing them for even less than China.
That being said, several automakers have blindfolded themselves about the type of cars people want. I do hope this threat is significant enough that automakers actually shift to mini-electric transportation options.
If not, I’d be happy enough buying a small Chinese electric even if the taxes made it equivalent to a larger “western” vehicle. Because it’s what I want to have available to me and it’s nice to fuck capitalists with capitalism.
It’d be nice if instead of putting massive tariffs, we would just subsidise production of comparable, small cars.
its less about the subsidies and more that budget buyers in the U.S in particular are very picky buyers.
while the federal/state EV tax credits, you can get vehicles like the Chevy Bolt for 20-22k. regardless the car still isnt that popular (meaning theres something specific about the car that buyers dont want).
for those buying used cars, theres not mamy reasons why someone would buy a say new 18k-20k EV that had many cuts in design vs an older premium EV. Used 2016 Model S for example can be found near 16k. its a new cheap car vs used premium car debate
this places a burden any any auto maker trying to make a budget car, because in order for it to sell well, they need to have razor thin margins, and sell a lot. failure to do so would spell the end of your compamy due to how many you produced.
I feel you strongly misunderstand the financial position of a lot of americans. They buy what they can afford, and would love a cheap new option in the market.
those who are in the budget state of mind is more likely buying a used vehicle over a brand new one. again, its the situation of a cheap new vehicle with a lot of cuts vs old vehicle that was considered premium. companies dont want to make a new cheap car because they have to compete with old premium ones.
when both the nissan leaf and chevy bolt guaged the market for a cheaper ev, they werent popular to the point where both models were canned, the leaf with no future date of return, and the bolt which chose not to have a new yearly model and will consider a newer one later. Fisker bankrupted itself out of the market, other external conpanies like kia arent importing their 20k evs like thr EV5 nor Ray EV for telling reasons, because the US market is extremely picky about what kind of car theyll buy.
the prices on cars in china are post government subsidies, and its already proven time again that when a BYD car gets moved elsewhere its real price is higher (sits closer to 20k rather than 12k) which would not put it that far from existing budget cars post federal subsidy.
keep in mind the american buyerbase is very politically charged. Conservative opinions have outright said they hate the push towards EVs, of those left, many have the common U.S mindset, that is they will only buy SUVs or Crossovers. then you have the section that will refuse to buy a car without a certain amount of capacity, which is why you can buy cars with 140-150 mi capacity outside of the U.S but its basically non existant within it. Its basically only the U.S market thats extremely picky with these kind of stuff, where drivers heavily value leg room and size over cost/efficiency
June 11th 2024 GM announced that the board approved a 6 Billion dollar stock buyback plan.
That is a direct wealth transfer from the company to the owners.
We have met the enemy, and they are us.
The next quarter is the only thing that matters.
And this is why we will bail them out again.
That 9 billion could have been spent on making a low cost EV to compete. It could have been spent as retention bonuses for their best workers. It could have been spent so many things that would secure their future in a changing world.
I think it’s as true for government as it is for corporations. Nobody is the adult in the room.
Sounds like some healthy competition the caps are always on about
MushuChupacabraHave they tried being competitive?
The Earth is 🔥burning🔥, by our own hands, and we’d still rather play team sports for greedy sociopaths than prioritize even doing it more slowly.
The Earth will heal in a few million years once we’ve destroyed ourselves. ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
How does buying a cheap new car even if you don’t need it going to save humanity or prevent the earth from burning?
The US is trying to keep these tiny ones out because they want you yo buy their gas vehicles or larger, more expensive electrics. Larger vehicles consume more resources, take more to produce, and even large electric vehicles draw more from the dirty grid than a small personal conveyance like these designed to move you and your groceries.
And that’s a strawman to infer that our self-destruction hinges on this single point. This is yet another example on the heap of the larger problem. “it might hurt short term PROFITS for our greed mongers, so we won’t allow something that might begin to mitigate the scale of the problem.”
That said, it sounds like you agree with them, and if that’s the case, I have good news, they’ll continue to get their way in every economic sector, and yes, cumulatively, our species is paying and will pay an even greater price for allowing blind, insatiable greed to make every decision.
theguardian.com/…/mexico-central-america-us-heatw…
If we cared about having a future for the species at all, Humanity’s only mission right now would be to END the global economy’s jihad of growth/metastasis, every major nation would institute child limits, and we would work to end consumerism and find homeostasis/equilibrium instead.
But as common economic decisions like this demonstrate, we have decided to burn the future so as not to disrupt the reckless party of avarice and gluttony for our owners today. Is what it is.
There are numerous small vehicles for sale in the US already but nobody buys them because they want a vehicle that’s good at more than one thing (being small) when forking over tens of thousands of dollars for it. Nobody is legislating to ban small or efficient vehicles they want to ban a foreign country from manipulating our markets by selling vehicles at artificially low prices due to billions in subsidies for their national brands.
This idea that if we simply threw out all 200+ million vehicles in the US and replaced them with new, more efficient ones, global warming would suddenly end is ridiculous. This is just consumer mentality and treating cars like disposable iPhones with the mindset that you’re “being green.” If you want to help curb emissions, go buy a used Prius or EV instead of demanding that a factory build you a new car and do so at an artificially low price. Go buy a bicycle or electric scooter. You’re not reducing emissions by destroying a product that has already been built and is in good condition just to replace it with a newer version.
I didn’t bother reading the rest of your comment since it devolved into unhinged rambling.
I’m super conflicted about this. I want cheap EVs, but at the same time, China is intentionally dumping their prices to kill competition so they can later jack it up.
It won’t matter how fair things were if we are all dead.
I mean, EVs are not going to save the earth. Investments/innovations into our infrastructures will.
Nuclear power is the only thing currently that can save us. Unfortunately, we have ill-informed people not understanding what nuclear is.
🔰Hurling⚜️Durling🔱I still want my nuclear car GM!