archomrade [he/him]'but why are you only complaining about DEMOCRATS?'
PugJesus“Cool, what form does your agitation come in?”
“Encouraging apathy, and demonization of the only non-fascist candidate with a chance to win without suggestion of realistic alternatives”
Most “agitators” on here can’t even vote.
HuntressHimboDiscourage apathy by putting your fingers in your ears and shout about how impossible making any positive change is instead!
“Changing 50 years of foreign policy on an issue most American voters don’t regard as important (however horrific that is) isn’t going to happen because the left-wing is threatening to let a fascist take power; that’s literally the opposite of the scenario that should be happening for improvement”
most American voters don’t regard as important (however horrific that is)
This is quite literally the thing we’re trying to change.
Reasonably speaking - how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to switch the primary issues of concern for the American electorate from domestic security (including the safety of LGBT folks, immigrants, and democracy itself) and economics (at a time when many are pressed hard by the current economic situation) to foreign policy?
Treating this as an honest question - by raising the issue so that it can’t easily be ignored.
Just gonna put this here, because MLK says it better than I can:
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.
That presumes that the issues you’re raising are going to raise tension above the tension of the aforementioned issues, which is extremely unlikely in the current circumstances.
My point isn’t “STOP RAISING AWARENESS”, my point is “This is not the winning issue you think it can be; and threatening to hand power over to fascists if you don’t get your way is just going to hand over power to fascists”
“This is not the winning issue you think it can be; and threatening to hand power over to fascists if you don’t get your way is just going to hand over power to fascists”
This is a contradictory statement.
Fucking what
It can’t both be
- a losing issue and
- an issue that threatens to let fascists win
Either pushing this issue threatens the democratic base of support or nobody cares enough about this issue to make it a winning one.
It can’t both be
a losing issue and
an issue that threatens to let fascists win
what the fuck
That…
that’s exactly why it IS a losing issue
This isn’t some fucking game, where the sides are ‘balanced’ or someshit.
We run in a system where victories are decided by a fraction of a fucking percentage point.
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue.
I’m just going to keep quoting this back to you.
Uh, okay, you have fun with not understanding the difference between social change and an election coming up in a handful of months with tensions over key issues already sky-high, and ‘Foreign Policy tension’ being pretty fucking unlikely to top or come close to any of them regardless of how loud you make “Genocide Joe” chants.
Then it shouldnt be of any concern to you that I continue agitating it.
It shouldn’t be any concern to me that you’re agitating on an issue that can’t possibly win us the election, but can very possibly lose us the election?
you’re agitating on an issue that can’t possibly win us the election, but can very possibly lose us the election?
“[…]create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue.”
Negotiations only work when there is something that both sides can agree on exchanging, and refusing a deal offered, even a poor one (“I will condemn Israeli genocide but not make any actions against it”), is only viable insofar as you’re willing to accept the alternative (“I will give Israel everything it wants and more, and also I will commit genocide here, and also you can look forward to never having a real election again”).
Except, at least on paper, we all agree that there is a resolution that would be acceptable to both parties.
I suspect (as do many other leftists who have a more cynical view of american imperialism than you do) that Biden is well aware of what the right thing to do is, but doesn’t want to be the one to give up the benefits of having Israel as a foothold in the middle east and is willing to accept a genocide in order to keep it.
If Biden ever made a strong case publicly on why Israel is such an important ally that we should ignore their atrocities, it would be impossible for any of us to miss it. I think we haven’t seen that case being made because nobody who believes in the benevolence of the US would be happy with it.
Except, at least on paper, we all agree that there is a resolution that would be acceptable to both parties.
The two-state solution that the Biden administration has confirmed is the desired solution?
I suspect (as do many other leftists who have a more cynical view of american imperialism than you do) that Biden is well aware of what the right thing to do is, but doesn’t want to be the one to give up the benefits of having Israel as a foothold in the middle east and is willing to accept a genocide in order to keep it.
“the benefits of having Israel as a foothold in the middle east”
This line is trotted out all the fucking time by both Zionists and anti-Zionists, and yet it has not one lick of fucking truth to it.
Israel isn’t a good ally. They aren’t even a mediocre ally. They’re a pariah state we play human shield for because a third of the electorate is high on Israel’s propaganda that it’s pumped in for the past forty years, and a third is high on religious eschatology.
If Biden ever made a strong case publicly on why Israel is such an important ally that we should ignore their atrocities, it would be impossible for any of us to miss it.
Biden has made the case, publicly, that Israel’s atrocities do not rise to the level of being worth being stripped of aid, for political, diplomatic, and security reasons. It’s a stupid case, but it is a case.
Israel isn’t a good ally. They aren’t even a mediocre ally. They’re a pariah state we play human shield for because a third of the electorate is high on Israel’s propaganda that it’s pumped in for the past forty years, and a third is high on religious eschatology.
I completely agree, but I imagine we probably disagree about who is propagandizing for israeli support. I don’t think it’s a baseless accusation to suggest the US stands to gain something from the relationship, and suggesting otherwise is a little strange considering just how robust that support is. Biden himself said if Israel didn’t exist, the US would create one to advance her interests in the Middle East. I’m assuming that didn’t come out of nowhere.
Biden has made the case, publicly, that Israel’s atrocities do not rise to the level of being worth being stripped of aid, for political, diplomatic, and security reasons. It’s a stupid case, but it is a case.
Then someone should be pushing him to make a stronger one, either way, before he loses the election to an issue he seems to not have a compelling response to.
Joe Biden says if Israel didn't exist, the US would have to invent one to protect US interests
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I'll try to clear it up a little.
Here's a recent poll showing that support for ending the invasion into Gaza isn't widely supported
There's a lot of risk to Biden's election chances if he withdraws his support for Israel, probably more risk than if he maintains his current actions. So withdrawing his support for Israel isn't the clear cut winning decision that you seem to think it is.
Your threat of withholding your vote for Joe Biden unless he changes policy to match what you want will most likely result in Joe Biden losing the election. If he changes course and withdraws support as you want then he'll probably lose more voters than he gains, costing him he election. If he stays the course and you don't vote for Joe Biden he's likely to lose the election.
Yes and you’ve decided that rather than try and change their minds you’ll just write off Palestine and sit around waiting for another five months. Or sorry not even that, you’ve decided that you’re going to scream at the people who are going to try and call them Trump supporters.
Yeah, sorry that my issue of first concern is stopping a genocide here, in the US, which is very likely to happen in case of a very-probable Trump presidency, instead of [checks notes] completely reversing the entire US establishment and Democratic Party (with their razor-thin majority in the Senate and literal minority in the House) in the next 5 months over an issue most voters are simply not that concerned with to remove all aid from Israel, which will [checks notes again] not actually stop Israel’s policy of continued genocide.
Different guy, different perspective.
Never once have I ever said we should stop all support of Israel, I think we should give them all the iron dome missiles they want, but that is it.
Let them have their best self defense weapon, god knows it will save some kids from a whackadoo with a rocket launcher.
Hell, if we have anything to do with arrow, or whatever the other one is, I want to say David’s sling, but that is probably wrong, give them all they want of those as well.
Whoever makes those missiles deserves the money for them.
You seem to be trying to take this to an extreme when there a ton of us that just want a more moderate solution.
Fucking set up real places for these people, an actual safe place with shelter, food, water, and medical, including therapy, especially for those kids.
Surround the motherfucker with a wall and a deadline, but use someone smart enough to know not to kill a kid that wanders in there.
Put livestream cameras on every inch that isn’t private.
People can only do so much in a tent city under tight surveillance.
Vet the people as they come in with both a terrorist list and tsa body scanners.
Whoever builds that is the fucking hero, safety, food, and starting to tear down all of the psychological issues that would save them so many problems later on.
Also put that motherfucker under iron dome protection, that way no one can bomb it, accidentally or otherwise, without it being obvious.
The us military is the most effective logistical team on earth.
I doubt you could find someone more effective at setting up ad-how shelter in a desert environment, while also keeping it safe.
Never once have I ever said we should stop all support of Israel
You seem to be trying to take this to an extreme when there a ton of us that just want a more moderate solution.
Man, I’VE said we should do so. It’s not a question of how extreme I want the US’s response to Israel to be.
The difference in extremes is in what I think is reasonable to push that view; I’m very aware that it’s not something that is just ‘demanded’ six months before an election, and that playing chicken with my vote, or trying to convince other people to play chicken with their’s, is a great way to get hit by a freight train of fascism in this election.
OneWomanCreamTeamPutting your fingers in your ears to drown out the sound of the Overton window screeching to the right is a much better alternative.
If I were encouraging apathy, I’d be trying to get people to ignore an important issue by arguing ‘change simply isn’t realistic so it’s better to to just shut your eyes to it’
Sorry, but what are you encouraging then? Like, what’s the ask?
OP's only ask is "feel bad enough about Biden and the Democrats to stay home in November." That's it. That's the whole thing.
I just noticed the username, and I’ve argued with this guy before. You’re spot on, he does not have a sincere argument.
See my response to themeatbridge.
The goal is to stop democrats from continuing to support a genocide (min) and a genocidal project (max)
The route is through moderates, who would really like to not talk about this issue, because while it is something they agree with, pointing to something bad that they are contributing to threatens to weaken their voting base. Any political agitation necessarily implicitly makes that threat, and it’s intentional, because otherwise the moderate would have no reason to push for it.
So your aim is only to cast aspersions on Democrats, got it.
Surely you're aware of the two-party system of politics in the United States, one where if Democrats lose, Republicans win, and those Republicans will do the genocide you claim to hate so much even harder, not to mention royally fucking things up for huge swaths of people domestically, handing Ukraine over to Russia (which extends to directly threatening the rest of Europe/NATO), and walking away from Taiwan, for starters.
You don't want to "end genocide," you want to get Republicans elected.
So your aim is only to cast aspersions on Democrats, got it.
Because they are the ones who claim to agree, but apparently lack sufficient motivation to stop obstructing progress.
but apparently lack sufficient motivation to stop obstructing progress.
“Yeah, a fascist victory will motivate those fuckers! Take that, moderates! Maybe next election you’ll-”
If agitating this issue is enough to make that threat real then it’s enough for them to address it. It’s that simple.
Address it… how? By swapping their position and losing even more votes from those with a pro-Israel position?
By swapping their position and losing even more votes from those with a pro-Israel position?
Either by swapping their position and making their case to those who disagree with it,
or
keeping their position and attempt justifying it to those who disagree with it
keeping their position and attempt justifying it to those who disagree with it
The fuck do you think they’ve been doing.
Nothing particularly convincing to anyone paying attention.
I have yet to hear their justification on ignoring the war crimes committed by an ally. I’ll happily ruminate on it if I did.
Nothing particularly convincing to anyone paying attention.
Okay, so they are doing what you want them too, you just still don’t like it enough to work to stop fascism.
I (quite loudly) disagree with what you constitutes ‘working to stop fascism’. And I will continue voicing that disagreement loudly until that changes.
Yes, you quite loudly disagree with the idea that working to stop a fascist from getting into power is ‘working to stop fascism’. It very much highlights where your priorities are.
you quite loudly disagree with the idea that working to stop a fascist from getting into power is ‘working to stop fascism’
Almost, I disagree that working to stop fascism entails supporting them while they commit atrocities abroad
What else will you not support the opposition to fascism over? What other matters do you regard as more important than opposing fascism?
What other matters do you regard as more important than opposing fascism?
There is NO issue more important than opposing fascism, THAT’S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD BE OPPOSING FASCISM IN GAZA
"I oppose fascism in Gaza by enabling more fascism in the United States!"
There is NO issue more important than opposing fascism
Except foreign affairs, it would seem.
THAT’S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD BE OPPOSING FASCISM IN GAZA
Damn, you want us to go to war with Hamas AND Israel? I thought we were done with nation-building.
Or is what you mean “We should make a show of opposing fascism in Gaza”? In which case the only difference between your position and Biden’s is one of degrees.
Damn, you want us to go to war with Hamas AND Israel? I thought we were done with nation-building.
We we certainly shouldn’t be supplying material support for an active genocide, that seems like a pretty obvious red flag to most people. Going to war ourselves is a stretch, but not obstructing an ICC arrest warrant and recognizing Palestinian statehood at the UN seem like other common-sense positions that fall well short of going to war, but what do I know about what it is you think?
The problem with that is their position is “let’s keep supporting genocide” which isn’t a justifiable position.
Hey now let’s not forget, abandoning Ukraine and Taiwan means that Russia and China get to do some genocide as well.
That was implied.
Ok, but that’s an aspiration, not an action plan. What are you asking people to do? Who should they vote for? Where should they make political donations? Imagine you have convinced someone you’re right. What’s their next step?
What are you asking people to do?
-
stop pushing this issue to the side and make it a priority
-
join in pushing your representatives to change their policy
The second point requires you do the bare minimum of raising the issue. The more you raise the issue the less your representative can ignore it.
Who should they vote for?
People should vote for the least bad option according to their own priorities. But if all you’re doing is voting than you haven’t done anything to address the issue being raised, and you are still a part of the problem. If, in response to this issue being raised, is simply ‘but the other guy is worse’, you’ve done nothing but obstructed progress and you’ll be called out on it by the few of us who are doing the work of agitation.
Where should they make political donations?
In my opinion: to any organization that supports the end to the genocide. I recommend any of these progressives currently under threat by the AIPAC
Imagine you have convinced someone you’re right. What’s their next step?
Use whatever platform they have available to spread the message that democrats must end their support to Israel’s war crimes. Make it clear that they risk losing their re-election if they continue dodging the issue.
More than 20 progressive groups form a coalition to counter pro-Israel groups before the election
More than 20 progressive groups are coming together to forcefully reject pro-Israel groups’ efforts to primary challenge liberal members who've been critics of Israel’s military offensive in Gaza. The new coalition is called Reject AIPAC. It includes Jewish peace organizations and Arab American and Muslim groups that have been organizing in record numbers since the Israel-Hamas war began in October. Their efforts are a direct response to pro-Israel political action committees like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or AIPAC, pledging or planning to spend tens of millions of dollars to try to defeat members of the so-called “squad” in Democratic primaries and the general election this year.
Make it clear that they risk losing their re-election if they continue dodging the issue.
“If I don’t get the policy change I want, fascism is an acceptable alternative” - People Who Are DEFINITELY Not Fascists™
It would be better if everyone who agreed with the policy change being pushed would also raise the issue, so that representatives would have a better idea of how many within their base actually supported it.
So what you’re saying is that you’re a single-issue voter.
I’m saying i’ll vote in november for whoever best serves my interests, just like everyone else here.
But i’ll make sure my voice is heard all the way up until november what I think of Biden’s shit Israel policy.