Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸I figured I’d be bored, but really the mid-century styles make even the walls fun to look at. What a lovely time capsule. Where can I get one of those desk lighters?
And they got the guy from Mad Men. He somehow looks older in this though. 🧐
I’m kind of fascinated by what I call “benevolent manipulators.” Columbo is one. They exist in real love, too. Myles from season 6 of The Circle is one. The guy from Leverage might count. People who manipulate in a harmless way, or even to reduce harm. They seem pretty rare both IRL and in fiction, but I’ve just started looking for them, so I might have missed this archetype in other shows. Penn and Teller might count. That’s a side of the spectrum we’re veering into and that’s writers and other illusionists as art. 🤔
This is one of those things I wonder: if our culture had a full-on benevolent manipulator trope, would many of the people who grew up malevolent manipulators have instead taken the benevolent route? By having an alternative example identity to choose from?
The closest trope we have is the “con artist with the heart of gold” which is not what I mean. Being remediated away from being awful by a special good person only feeds that whole thing.
But THIS outfit. Where can I get one??
#TV #Columbo #retrofashion #nonbinary #genderfuck #genderpunk #genderfluid
I should have gotten organized and created two distinct threads for Columbo, one about vintage fashion/design, the other about the deeper thoughts.
#TV #Columbo #retrofashion #nonbinary #genderfuck #genderpunk #genderfluid
Anyway, here’s a great social engineering technique (and notice, police procedural writers, how this particular one does in fact respect the murderer’s civil rights):
1. Offend the suspect with your suspicions to the point they become tilted.
2. When they angrily offer up the key to their apartment and tell you to search it in their defensiveness, act apologetic but then take the key out of malicious compliance. Then search their apartment.
No warrant required, and you’ve used the suspect’s ego against them.
Really I think most of Colombo’s technique involves testing people for fragile ego syndrome. He hardly uses the factual clues, instead pointing his attention in the direction of anyone he can get a reaction out of. Since he’s charming and polite, he really only annoys the guilty ones who would rather have him stop snooping.
(S1E6. There’s also some delightful commentary on the art scene in this one.)
#TV #Columbo #retrofashion #nonbinary #genderfuck #genderpunk #genderfluid
God damn it, S1E7 is incredibly morally problematic in light of you know, society figuring out that women have a right to consent and the right to live their own lives.
I was rooting for the murderer the whole time because other than a few mistakes, she makes a sympathetic figure to anyone who believes women should, you know, have rights.
Literally every single man in this episode is out to control her INCLUDING Columbo. I am very not rooting for him this time.
Bob Blaskiewicz 🇺🇦 🇨🇦 🇬🇱@corbden *raises eyebrows* Fascinating.
@rjblaskiewicz he’s *Murder* Nimoy too 🖖🏻
Aphrodite (recharging)When I worked for the police, I got so many people to confess crimes to me just by being friendly and playing at being naive.
Then instantly the unprompted confession was typed into the case files with timestamp and my name attached to it.
it's B! Cavello 🐝@corbden Good point.
I also love the Police Story movies (partially because they show the absurdity) but Jackie Chan def does a bunch of no-good stuff.
I also love the Police Story movies (partially because they show the absurdity) but Jackie Chan def does a bunch of no-good stuff.
@b_cavello Yeah, I can hardly watch any police procedurals anymore unless they're subverting the trope in some way. The Wire being king of all that. I can't take the apologia anymore, the rogue cop who doesn't go by the "book" (read: The Constitution) but gets the "bad guy" so it's a-ok! Then we wonder why we've got a society full of cops who don't go by the book but they get the people of color and it's NOT ok but most of the population seems to think it is.
But I'll excuse Columbo. Because he's punching up I guess? But really it's because he's likable.
@corbden I like this line of thinking! I think we have a weird relationship with free will and such, but I like the magician/poet direction you’re taking things in. Like artists who make us FEEL SOMETHING maybe are these sorts of manipulators. Maybe also some kinds of coaches? Like people who help us bring out the best in ourselves?
I suppose one difference between good and bad is the consent and agency piece. Like are they manipulating you into something you want/need?
I suppose one difference between good and bad is the consent and agency piece. Like are they manipulating you into something you want/need?
@b_cavello Yes, informed consent is a big part of what makes manipulation ethical or not. We know a movie is fiction, so it's ethical. The other big part is, is the manipulator helping me achieve my own goal, or their own goal? An ethical therapist is manipulating me, but we've agreed on the same goal. Therapists who veer from that are not ethical. Unethical manipulators may fool themselves first, by telling themselves what they do is "for our own good," which comes out in cults quite a bit. This is why consent is so important.
Back to Columbo, though. The man he's manipulating has committed a murder and has IMO given up any right to fair play. That's where us principled people need to take stock. If someone is not playing by the rules, then I don't have to play by the rules with them.
It's a tricky line, though, wandering into "ends justify the means," and we have to *know* the person has broken the rules. Critical and moral reasoning needs to be pretty strong walking these paths.
This is, awkwardly enough, why I am willing to work with individuals who lack affective empathy and who choose to not inflict pain on others and self. (I don’t use the p-word to describe such people.)
To be clear, I vet these folks intensely. Teaching cognitive empathy to such a person is a powerful tool.
At the same time there are places where both those who lack empathy and those who overflow with it, like me, can thrive where others can’t in some prosocial tasks.
@Aphrodite Yeah, I've not given up on empathyless people. There seem to be other factors that lead to the various harm-causing disorders we've labeled. I'm myself on the fence about using such labels. We're in a weird time where we've identified these things, but maybe the boxes we've made aren't accurate.. but we've also got to be able talk about it.
I think some people might have been born with both lack of empathy AND pleasure responses to causing pain, and I don't know what to do in those cases.
But many people are born without empathy and that's that, and then nurture can affect how they turn out.
The thing we call narcissism I think is much more complicated. I think they feel empathy but it's wrapped up in trauma in such a way that maintaining control of their world through harming others is necessity, so they use the empathy toward that end. Changes to society would fix that eventually, in many or most cases.
Moz@corbden I think there's a continuum between politeness and manipulation.
"I don't want you to think I'm rude". Most people have thoughts and impulses that aren't socially acceptable. Hiding them is both socially desirable and manipulative. Where do you draw the line? Is there a line? Where *should* it be if it exists?
Is lying about my inner monologue to make you like me manipulative? I mean, lying is bad, right?
(welcome to a common ASD thought pattern)
@moz Any social interaction when it gets down to it is manipulation. Persuasion is also on this spectrum. The morality of it comes down to informed consent, so the level of deception, and the level of fairness to the other person's needs, are both important. Also assuming the other person hasn't already violated these same principles themselves. I just made another reply here where I go into it more:
Mx. Luna Corbden (@[email protected])
@[email protected] Yes, informed consent is a big part of what makes manipulation ethical or not. We know a movie is fiction, so it's ethical. The other big part is, is the manipulator helping me achieve my own goal, or their own goal? An ethical therapist is manipulating me, but we've agreed on the same goal. Therapists who veer from that are not ethical. Unethical manipulators may fool themselves first, by telling themselves what they do is "for our own good," which comes out in cults quite a bit. This is why consent is so important. Back to Columbo, though. The man he's manipulating has committed a murder and has IMO given up any right to fair play. That's where us principled people need to take stock. If someone is not playing by the rules, then I don't have to play by the rules with them. It's a tricky line, though, wandering into "ends justify the means," and we have to *know* the person has broken the rules. Critical and moral reasoning needs to be pretty strong walking these paths.
@corbden interesting, and I wonder if it's even theoretically possible to make that consent explicit. Even in a one-sides model of consent (say, men have to ask women if it's ok not to be entirely truthful)
Sadly with children consent is completely irrelevant, modern society has decided that it's not just parents who are free to lie to children in order to manipulate them.
@moz When your model of reality includes the unconscious idea that other people can be your property and/or extensions of yourself, the concept of consent isn't even comprehensible. Consent is a radical anti-authoritarian idea that makes #AbuseCulture become clear like a fish realizing they are in water.
@corbden sadly a lot of people struggle with the idea that consent isn't just something women give and men ask for.
I use children as a less controversial example of the problem.
I've lived in an anarchist commune that practiced consent-based parenting and it was a bit of a shock.
But I also deal a lot with people who "just know" that I consent to what they're doing, sometimes despite my claims to the contrary.
When I do work in the derad space, I refer to what I do as “gentle handling,” which is the literal translation of “manipulation.”
I can’t change anyone’s mind. I can work to convince someone to change their mind, though.
It’s hard. I need to be aware of things like amygdala hijack and words/phrases that trigger thoughtstopping.
But when I can get a TERF to recognize our shared humanity, or when I help an incel leave that cursed death cult, I’m humbled and grateful.
@Aphrodite Who will manipulate the manipulators?