Potatos_are_not_friendsMakes me laugh
NeatoSame thing but libertarians are too embarrassed to call themselves conservatives. Or too stupid.
But I’m not a Conservative. I’m pro choice
You can be pro-choice and be a conservative. The divisions between conservative, progressive, etc. are not well-defined, strong boundaries but ideologies. In general if you profess a majority of political opinions that are opposed to your country’s/locale’s conservative policies then it might be hard for you to justify it. But there are pro-choice American Republicans. There are pro-LGBT American Republicans. There are even pro-democracy American Republicans (a shocker, I know).
But I’m contending that American Libertarians (as in the party, not the very vague ideological notion) are Conservatives and very close to American Republicans. They share, in effect if not in stated policy, the same stances as Republicans based on their support for bills and politicians. They are essentially just a slight white-washed versions of Republicans.
A person can be a pro-choice conservative. But if you’re pro choice, pro lgbt, want to legalize all drugs, and didn’t vote for Donald Trump, you’re not a Republican.
You’re not really in line with American Libertarians, either, Libertarian party is more than just “legal drugs”.
It’s plenty in line with the likes of Gary Johnson, or Jo Jorgersen, as in the last two nominees of the Libertarian party
Libertarians are republicans who like weed, CMM
GodricNuance is unimportant to you, CMM
And are generally ok with LGBTQIA+, I think it’s important to note.
Oh cool like gamble with these nazis… they might not be socially toxic… generally.
Generally okay with, but are they generally OK with legislation protecting those individuals/recognizing them as protected under the same laws that protect for factors of sex and race?
Well, we think bigots should be allowed to come out as bigoted so we can cancel them. If they generally hide and still do it sneaky-like, a law wouldn’t stop them
Yes, with the caveat that libertarianism is opposed to some of those laws for any group.
For example, libertarianism strongly condemns murder, but does not support hate crime laws whereby the murderer’s motive becomes a separate crime provided it interacts with a protected class, such as murdering someone based on sex or race.
Probably yes and no: yes insofar that they are for identical rights for everyone, no that they are for identical rights for everyone.
“Okay” with their existence. Not with protecting them from abuse and persecution.
Which about sums up the fundamental flaw with libertarians and why they are basically chickenshit republicans.
Everyone has a right to exist. But you are on your own because I am not paying for that since I don’t personally care about it
It is why the silver bullet is, and always will be, “explain how orphanages work under libertarianism”
At which point you just have people vaguely saying they support other people’s rights while still wanting to pay no taxes, offer no help to anyone who doesn’t directly impact them, and still want to get everything they want.
It is why the silver bullet is, and always will be, “explain how orphanages work under libertarianism”
Can you elaborate? I don’t get what this is implying.
Libertarians are mostly pro choice, against restricting gambling, against censorship, against mass government surveillance, against NIMBYism, for gay marriage, and trans rights. Find me a conservative that checks even half of those boxes
Boomer Humor Doomergod“The only problem with the KKK is that they smoke weed” - Jeff Sessions, allegedly
Ideologically, they’re different, but practically, they’re not.
Yeah, I remember when the libertarians packed an entire circuit and the SC, and then rallied behind the reblican cantidate at a convention.
Take the win. We’ll fight in better times. We got work to do now.
Yea I remember as well. They all vote republican. There is no reality where libertarians come out on the right side of Bush. History has shown you stupid. Keep trying to re-write it.
They definitely don’t “all vote republican”. And I’m. Not sure which bush you’re talking about but if you mean patriot act Bush… You’re kidding yourself.
This day and age I have no way of knowing if your some troll account or not, but in the event that you’re not: libertarian praxis is awful. But there are a ton of folks like myself and others who realize to vote in 2028 there’s only one way this can go. Literally the article. You’ll also find a lot of libertarians who are in favor of things like UBI and a strong social safety net.
And it’s the same as it was when we had gay marriage as tent pole when Democrat cantidate were equivicating: we’ll do the right thing, but no one gets to dictate that because the current situation is not purely a function of external factors. Two things are true: the democratic party utterly failed, and it’s still our best hope for the future.
Keep trying…
So here’s the thing: I don’t need to, but you do. Anyone I still want in my party understands how 2024 needs to go. Meanwhile Democrats can’t get out of their own way, have a spotty history at best, and continually fail at 85% of the promises that get them elected.
They were given the softest pitches in history, barley squeaked out a win in 2020, and fours years later they’re, somehow, our best hope at getting back to arguing about the best way towards real progress. There is no choice in 2024, it’s that simple.
But I am not the one that needs to “keep trying”.
I can dig it. But you’re talking about party and I’m talking about policy.
The dems have a habit of snatching defeat from the jams of victory. But that’s separate from lying the country into multiple wars. It’s separate from the history of conservatism that existed for decades. It’s separate from the “tea party” and all the dirty money that ever gave libertarians air time in the first place.
It’s an argument begging for validity without any actual civil benefits it can point to. You can keep saying how shitty dems are at getting elected. My response is how shitty libertarians are when that they’re in office.
That’s totally fair. I’ll fully concede a huge part of why libertarians have a great track record on principles is because they’ve never BEEN in a position to compromise on them.
But you ask about track record, you mention multiple wars, you could have mentioned a ton of other things dem shot their foot off at…
We need more than two parties. Desperately. We don’t have it so it’s not worth talking about, but it doesn’t change the need. But at the end of the day, the thing I can never get past, despite agreeing with dems on a huge number of things, is there’s no guiding principle.
Libertarian NAP has a boatload of issues… But it’s a starting point to be worked from that supercedes the party. It’s incomprehensible to me running a cantidate who voted to get us into those wars, who opposed gay marriage, and we haven’t even gotten to Biden yet.
Again, there is no choice in 2024. But the democratic party is entirely without principle. There is no way to shift it internally because it has no internal framework that lasts. I pray to a God I don’t belive in it gets us through, but it also got us into this mess and for that it should go.
You talk about dems shooting their foot off. I’m talking about conservatives shooting the face off the country. Libertarians don’t offer a better direction compared to “bomb bomb bomb Iran” they are Lee Atwater let off the chain. Libertarianism is just conservatism let loose there is a chain of rhetoric linking this all to terrible actions.
This is a way better conversation than I was anticipating and let’s take a minute to agree on the fact that shits fucked, we’d like it unfucked, and at least short term there’s only one way to make that happen.
The view for most of libertarians I get along with would be that no, conservatives didn’t blow THEIR face off… They blew OUR face off, like all of us.
Long term, there’s a ton to disagree on, but dems are going to need to take friends where they can get them. There are a ton of situations that further both interests that are low hanging fruits, but it’s important to acknowledge that, because the party has a lot to answer for.
Again, I cannot wait for the day we’re haggling about details. But the dems have entirely lost relevance, save the fact that, somehow, they’re our only hope against literal fascism. And Im just going to say it again because election interference is a thing: Joe Biden needs to win this election. But AOC is going to need to make some friends that will feel odd to the party.
My local libertarians helped set up pro-choice protests downtown and some of the younger guys did security for the speakers.
Yeah, I’ll always say “libertarian ‘with a little l’”. There’s some great principles there, and certainly a much better (if only because it’s stated) framework to work from, but I do laugh at the memes.
Sometimes it goes right. It was a pleasant surprise that Trump got yelled down so much, but it’s an embarrassment he was there in the first place.
And it’s borderline copy pasta for me, but abortion is an odd one. Strictly because if you genuinely belive a zygote is a human… Well… The rest doesn’t matter. Most people I know DONT belive that, including me, but that will always be the crux of things. But the sort of libertarian “default” is “if I can’t say, I certainly can’t use a gun to force your decision, therefore your independent decision should be protected”.
Yeah. At the 2020 state convention we had a 60ish year old dude stand up to remind libertarian christians to vote no on the abortion shit here.
The internet fucks up perceptions of libertarians to a large degree.
And, yeah. I think the progressive left has issues assuming the worst of people they disagree with.
I mean… I still love em but you don’t have to look far for crazy. That’s the “little l” part. You can absolutely take the best and leave the worst. One of the benefits of our electoral system is if you’re not in a swing state, youre “protest vote” really does matter. None of those folks will win, but notes will be taken. There’s also campaign finance dollars that free up.
And I cannot emphasize the if enough. With what’s coming up you have to weigh that against your certainty your state’s delegates will still ensure a 2028 election. Fun stuff.
Again, I didn’t vote for Donald Trump last election, but 97% or something of conservatives did,
Libertarians are much friendlier with conservatives than they are with liberals, however
XanthraxWould you believe there are libertarian communists? It sounds like a contradiction. Old queer couples should be able to protect their Marijuana plants with guns and pay their taxes for welfare.
Why do libertarian concerns always sound like loud petty arguments you would hear at the HOA?
I want to be on the side that’s NOT on the HOA.
Well you were yelling about sheds and growing weed. I assume you’re waving a gun around as you type. This is like a stereotypical rant at an HOA or city council meeting.
Speaking of which, here’s what a town run by libertarians looks like:
It would be hard to wave a gun and type, lol. That’s a battle AGAINST HOA and the city council. Also, I don’t identify with them. I’m a libertarian communist, not a “red pilled, tech bro, toll roading, anti-choice,” libertarian. I’ve largely denounced my party. I believe in the ideals, not the party.
Social libertarian is what you are looking for.
Yes, but the libertarian party of the USA doesn't adhere to the roots of the party. No need to be so hostile, it was an honest question and the fu very much sounds like "get off my lawn!”
I’m drunk, and I’ll admit I’m being hostile. Also, fuck lawns. They’re a French staple meant to express wealth. They kill pollinators. I just want to build a shed.
I'd very much like to learn and talk more with you about the original ideas of libertarianism when you're sober. Back in the late 90s, before the American Libertarians took over the party and changed it, a friend suggested it sounded like a fit for me. I'd also like to know if any other libertarians who are in accord with the original values have an online space for discussion, and any ideas to reclaim the party mechanisms.
There are very few left. I considered myself a social libertarian for a while but I now just don’t like political labels. They’re terrible for getting a point across.
JoeBigelowI’d get into that space too
I'm not catching your meaning.
I’d be interested in finding a space to discuss social libertarian ideas
Ah okay. Maybe we'll get a reply.
Anarchist magazines/communities/forums are what you’re looking for
Is that a global thing for libertarians or good old American exceptionalism?
explodicleI thought in other countries, “libertarian” meant libertarian and not “embarrassed conservative”.
I agree with the first part, the second I consider as more belligerent, very unhealed inner child.
If you have to convince yourself that “libertarianism” is the answer, you have bigger issues than weed plants. It doesn’t matter how high they grow…
SHED ON MY OWN LAND. DIRECTLY NEXT TO MY NEIGHBORS LOT DIRECTLY AGAINST THE PROPERTY LINE AND FENCE AND THEIR GARAGE. THE SHED WILL BE FILLED WITH FLAMMABLE CHEMICALS LIKE GASOLINE AND ILL RUN MY OWN EXTENSION LINES TO IT AND BECAUSE I BUILT IT MYSELF THE ROOF WILL LEAK
Right, this is the part that Libertarians fail to grasp. Liberty comes with responsibility, and responsibility breeds liberty.
In some cultures there is enough civic engagement that they can mostly be trusted to build sheds which don’t become oil soaked termite nests after a few years. People take that responsibility seriously so they have more freedom. In the US, the attitude is almost exclusively the purview of childish edgelords who don’t care that their behavior impacts others, which is precisely what breeds the need for dumb regulations. The regulations for building a shed are exactly as dumb as the people building sheds.
UnderpantsWeevilWould you believe there are libertarian communists?
There were libertarian communists. Then Murry Rothbard and Ludwig Von Mises happened, and the movement was functionally hugged to death by John Birchers and other neo-confederate freaks.
Now we have the DSA, the PSL, and the Green Party.
Or to be more exact: “LET ME BUILD A FUCKING SHED ON MY OWN LAND. ALSO, STOP TEARING DOWN HOMELESS PEOPLES’ TENTS.”
That’s more old school Spanish-flavored anarchism than American Libertarian-Communism. The Libertarian Communists actually wanted to build communes. And some of them were successful, for at least a little while. You can find small towns sprinkled all over the upper midwest and the Pacific Coast that were started as hippie communes and trans-racial utopian communities dating back to the 40s and 50s, but then got re-absorbed into the national economy over subsequent decades.
Lots of the weirder home improvement laws and residency laws came through as a response to these projects, as Good Ole Boy state governments reasserted themselves over young indie counter-culture communities.
the libertarian party has taken a horrible turn and I hate being conflated with a guy who had brain worms
The official LP also rejected RFK Jr. He’s in with the Reform Party which was Ross Perot’s old party from the 90s and also the party Donald Trump tried to run under back in… I wanna say 2000?
The modern LP (at least down in Texas) is split neatly between the Kathy Glass freaks and the Pat Dixon geeks. A bunch of disaffected reactionary goons too insurrectionist for the Bush Era Republican party on the right and a bunch of NORML loving hippie anarchists on the left. Its actually kinda beautiful to see them all come together and bag on Trump.
PugJesusI remember, a forum I was part of when I was in my youth had a good number of libertarians. I was on reasonably good terms with a number of them, and thought them genuine, if misguided.
The speed at which they changed their labeling to out-and-out fascists once Trump was elected was… staggering.
That was my experience also. I had a very smart coworker, a scientist, who was libertarian, very anti-police and everything. Then Trump came along and he went full fascist. It was very disturbing, and I haven’t trusted libertarians since.
Note: I’m using libertarian as shorthand for libertarian capitalist, which is mostly how it’s used in the US, though, as noted in another comment, there are other kinds of libertarians, like libertarian socialists.