return2ozmaLiberals are not 'the Left'...
MrJameGumb“everyone has to be a raving lunatic completely committed to following one herd or the other, regardless of what they actually think. Any individual thought must comply with hard party lines”
Is that what this means?
EldritchIt’s Ozma were talking about. It 100% is. They will always sabotage the achievable in favor of unobtainable perfection.
RestrictedAccountThe hallmark of Fundamentalism.
archonetlol, this is the internet, nuance doesn’t exist here.
Binarism is a sop for people who desperately want to cling to a self-affirming label, but can’t come up with any justification better than “the opposition is worse.”
Savage.
PugJesusCentrism is often relative.
Someone who is a ‘centrist’ between the far-right GOP and the centre-right Dems is probably just a shy Republican.
Someone who is a ‘centrist’ by the perceptions of Lemmy could be anyone to the right of Mao, depending on which part of Lemmy you’re talking to.
Ah, the good old claiming that “everybody not with us is a commie” so beloved by Fascists coming from the guy who posts memes where the toon who doesn’t agree to vote for Zionist-Genocide-loving Biden is wearing a red shirt with a white sickle and hammer.
It’s really interesting to see neolibs using the same kind of argument Nazis (I KID YOU NOT!) used which was basically calling everybody not with them “Communists”.
Well, it does make some sense given that the pro-Oligarchy politics of Neoliberlism aren’t that much away from Fascist politics, the main difference being that Fascism thinks the State should be above the ultra-wealthy and then after that comes the powerless riff-raff whilst Neoliberalism thinks the ultra-wealthy should be above the State and after that comes the powerless riff-raff.
Semi-serious question, what made you want to engage with this guy in like, some kind of debate? It’s pretty obvious he’s just like, a basic bitch bad faith neolib poster that’s going around and inciting pre-election division, probably get suppress voting or some shit, idk. But like, why engage with him? What’s the point, really?
I detest hypocrisy and bad faith mindless tribalist propaganda slogans.
(In fact in the country I live in, there are actual Communists who were even Stalinists until not that long ago, and that’s exactly what I dislike about them: hyprocrisy and bad faith mindless tribalist propaganda slogans. Curiously I detest the neo-Fascists for the very same reason: it’s a judgement and opinion I hold quite which applies independently of the supposed political side of those doing it)
So I pointed out the hypocrisy and the tribalist, parroty, propagandist and even unimaginative nature of the slogans that poster uses, not for them (in my experience people who operate like that either do so in bad faith or don’t actually seriously analyse the tribalists slogans they hear before they parrot them, so logic won’t affect them in the least) but for anybody else who ponders about politics (rather than be a mindless follower of a tribe) who happens to go by and who might not have noticed this yet.
PS: Funnilly enough, the post below this one on my profile is also on a chain were I engaged with another parroty, slogan throwing hypocrite, of the other tribe of American politics (not that those tribes are politically that far apart, IMHO) for a very similar reason: that one was throwing around the “Free Speech” slogan demanding that Netanyahu gets to address Congress, but apparently wasn’t so keen on my suggestion that if Congress is indeed a place where speech should be free then anybody should be allowed to speak there whenever they want and hence Netanyahu can join queue rather than get ahead by invitations (which interfere in the Free Speech of everybody else). Tribalist slogan throwers are invariably hypocrites.
Lemmy was literally started by ML. Who misidentify as Communists. Giving communists a bad name. There are literally people here who regularly defend lenin, stalin, Mao, Soviet russia, china, North korea, Etc. He’s not wrong. And if you feel attacked I think that says more perhaps about you than anyone else.
I Trend left libertarian/ anarcho communist. Yet I regularly get called a neoliberal by many of the Marxist leninists around here for not playing Simon Says group think. Far more often than I get called a tanky by right Wingers who visit. Which is saying something because being anti authoritarian I critique both pretty regularly.
Quick Edit I don’t stand behind everything PJ posts. Some I think is in bad taste as is much of Ozma’s. But they’re definitely not wrong in this case.
It is pretty funny that the “part of lemmy” in question immediately pops up and calls them a fascist though, proving the point
I think the exact term use was neoliberal. But they do treat them as synonymous. You’re not wrong about that.
It’s like calling all ML tankies. They’d be up in arms banding together if you did that to them. Yet they think it’s fine to do it to others. They know what they’re doing. And they’re not endearing themselves to anyone else that is for sure.
I mean I guess you’re technically right, they didn’t directly call them a fascist, they called them a neoliberal and then only compared them to Nazis
i think this is vastly misrepresented. A conservative “centrist” would be your traditional conservative, what we would refer to as moderate right, or center moderate right. Where as on the lefty side, it’s a little bit more like “i just don’t like the conservatives” and that’s kind of the extent of it.
moderate lefties would be like, socially progressive people, for example. Anything past that and you start getting into harder left wing camps. The left just isn’t as fractured and extremist as the right is in certain aspects, there are definitely extremists, but the vast majority of people fall into the more “centrist” definition of political alignment.
Totally, when you’re in a left wing echo chamber it’s easy to get labelled as a centrist or worse solely because you can sometimes see where the right wing is coming from, even if you don’t agree with them.
I don’t know why there’s currently a coordinated attack on anyone who isn’t so far left that reality has left them and they’re abstaining from voting. It’s bizarre.
Basically everyone on this website is to the left of the dems, and is just settling because America’s democracy is kinda fucked
HlodwigLol, US is fucked up, imagine being centrist but forced to vote for either a corrupted crooked clown or a senile opportunist corporatist…
Its like the Matrix, you think you have the choice when in fact either way it is only keeping the establishment the way it always was…
I can’t even tell which one you think Biden is but the fact you think they’re that similar shows you’ve no fucking clue
They only share one thing: they are both very bad presidential candidate.
Its ironic that you didnt get the meaning of my comment, it is the perfect example how oblivious american are about their political system. You are unable to see that the problem is not the opposition, but the system itself that is nowhere near what should be called a democracy.
But yeah whatever, keep taking the blue pill.
Actually I believe the US is doing mostly will economically and the majority of the country lives better than most the planet. We could use a stronger social safety net, better health care, and something should be done to reduce education costs.
I don’t agree with the nanny state bullshit. Fuck off already.
It’s spelled AKshUaLlY
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
I can’t find evidence of this but I swear the first time I heard of Dennis Prager he was selling himself as a ‘centrist’.
Patapon EnjoyerI would call him the moderate wing of the neonazi movement but we both know he’d go full reich if he could get away with it
That’s how republicans try to redefine the Overton window - claim that conservative extremists are moderates and the majority.
I’ve lost track, who’s turn is it tomorrow to post that’s same ‘meme’ tomorrow. Gosh it’s just so original and fresh the 75th fine seeing another, “if your centrist your basically a Trumper!”.
It’s okay, buddy, I believe you’re not a Trumper.
You’re just not a centrist either, because that’s not a real thing.
You can support the oligarchal control of the means of production without believing in a specific oligarch’s policies. That doesn’t make you more left, it’s perfectly right wing to believe in human rights. It just means you think exploiting labor is one of those rights.
centrism is real, and like schrodingers cat, it’s both alive and dead until you look inside the box.
Someone who claims themselves to be a centrist, is often miserable. Someone who claims themselves to be socially progressive, or economically conservative (for example) is often best defined as a “centrist” since they often toe the line, and will in many cases, cross over the line depending on policy, and how they feel that year. These people are more analogous to swing voters more than anything.
Okay. How many socialism points do you need to trade to do a genocide? Is a universal healthcare enough?
i reckon about the equivalent to saving an equivalent amount of lives. If we’re doing a barter deal.
Lol, trash.
i mean it makes sense, if we’re trying to find out how to karmic balance a genocide with healthcare, it would follow that saving an equivalent number of people would be the natural equivalent.
Exploiting labor? You mean two people entering into a contract voluntarily?
Person 1: I will pay you $X to paint my house
Person 2: I accept the terms of this agreement
DragonTypeWyven: isn’t there someone else you forgot to ask?
My favorite is “socially liberal but economically conservative”, like those things are exclusive of each other
Yeah, it’s basically “I’m in favor of a social safety net, but I’m also in favor of starving all social programs of funding” 🤦
“I’m in favour of Freedom as long as it doesn’t negativelly impact the priviledges I was born into when I popped-out of the right vagina”.
It’s the “Fight For Equality” that very purposefully keeps away from the one kind of discrimination of treatment is which bigger than all the others combines by quite the margin: Wealth Discrimination
“My parents are dependent on social security, but I really hate paying taxes”
well no it’s different than that, it’s more “i don’t believe in upholding the previous methods of societal progress, and control. But i prefer our economy stay minimally involved with most things.”
They are the way they mean it. Indivual freedoms such as legal abortions, gay marriage, drug legalization, etc, just not big on a welfare state.
“I hate poor people but I also like weed”
I thought it is more like - “I hate taxes, but I don’t mind the gays”.
“Discriminatory treatment against poor Afro-Americans because of their race is wrong.
Discriminatpry treatment against poor Afro-Americans because of being born into poverty is the right thing to do.”
i don’t think that statement implies that they’re mutually exclusive of each other. This has been a long defined standing that people will hold.
Weed should be legal so I can sell it to the people being crushed by capitalism.
jordanlundUndecided voters are Republicans who refuse to admit they’re voting for Trump.
“Ayh aint tellin’ yew who imma votin’ fer!”
Hey, it’s everyone’s right not to reveal political affiliation, when you aren’t actively campaigning for the other guy.
You guys are both equally terrible, you just lack the insight.
Most leftists I know live in states with democratic supermajorities, have been misrable cunts since Obama, and still manage to blame all their problems on trump being president for 4 years, 3 years ago.
Ultra MAGAS arent any different, every bit as miserable, every bit as hateful, but blame their problems on the guy in the white house instead of the people in charge of their state.
Both sides are calcified along lines where issues I care about are lumped in with shit I could care less or flat out oppose to the point where there is literally no advantage to either side winning for me.
Sad to say, you aren’t really wrong. We all actually need each other and have a lot to offer. It’s just too easy for ignorance and pride to get in the way.
It’s kinda weird watching people that can’t fit more than one ideology in their heads. The ‘funny’ thing is that being able to do so often makes the difference between having enough power in your own life.
Leftist: „I‘m miserable, because minorities are treated like shit, we still don’t have universal healthcare and we are at the brink of a fascist takeover.“
MAGA: „I‘m miserable because queer people exist, black people exist, literally anyone that is different from me exists.“
You (very intelligent): I can’t see any difference between you two.
There’s really no point in arguing with someone like you. It’s not your reasoning, it’s just your insane self-righteous perspective. If you’re the ‘good’ guy, l’ll gladly be the bad guy. Buy I won’t really fight unless it’s fun - in general, it’s just way easier to wait until like hands you your ass than to chamge someone’s mind.
Leftist: I can’t change other people MAGA: I can’t change other people
rage rage rage
Working in public health for a few years, I’ve found that people like to focus on things they have no control over because its a guilt free way to avoid tackling much more challenging tasks that can improve the individual’s life in the here and now.
The fascists lost 80 years ago, there are just people you disagree with.
I don’t know if you’re a minority, of you’re not, your dumb ass has no reason to be miserable over their treatment. If you are a minority, there are ways to dig yourself out of your QQ hole if you pull your head out of your anus. I find alot pf people who play the victim card get isolated because nobody wants to walk on egg shells around them. There are some ethnic groups with legitimate problems, but you’re on fucking Lemmy, there’s no way you’re one of them.
Lack of universal health care? Sounds like you may benefit from getting it through a private employer. If you already have it, why are you being a miserable cunt about other people not having access? You can be concerned, but miserable cuntdom is a disproportionate reaction.
This may be the most entitled, ignorant, bootstrapsy comment I’ve seen on here in awhile.
Self directed change is hard, and the majority don’t make it. I’m consistently amazed by how thse that don’t think they’re entitled to lecture me.
I’m not lecturing you as I don’t really care if you change or not. I’m just pointing out to others that you’re painfully ignorant.
Let me summerize your answer:
„Fuck anyone but me.“
Congratz, you’re the perfect example of a centrist 👍
The more appropriate summary is that I don’t need people who can’t take care of themselves lecture me about taking care of others. You’ll do more good in the long run tackling your own problems.
What you don’t get is:
Given the same conditions, some people have more obstacles put in their way than others.
Saying „I can look after myself“ from a position of privilege is easy.
But taking care of yourself AND removing the obstacles for others so they have the same chance to succeed like you is hard.
And yes: it can make you miserable. Especially when egoistic people keep adding those obstacles again.
SoleInvictusNo no no, you don’t get it. They get to lecture us but anyone who disagrees doesn’t get to lecture them in response because they’re wrong or lazy. Or something. Probably something.
As I’m sure you can see, we’re clearly dealing with a refined intellect far beyond our ability to understand.
/s, in case it isn’t obvious that I’m mocking this fuckwit