About the bear... - SDF Chatter

So, I’m just assuming we’ve all seen the discussions about the bear. Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it. The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of “You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself.” which results in endless comments of the “Akchully… according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to…” kind. It should be clear by now that it doesn’t lead to good places. Maybe, and I’m open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.” Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way? I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate. It doesn’t mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it’s not a technical discussion about bears. What do you think?

I have no idea what you’re talking about.
There was a thing where a woman said that she would feel more safe in a forest with a random bear than with a random man. Then the people who would comment on this type of thing commented, then the kinds of people who comment on the comments did their thing.

Ah.

Thanks.

It might feel something is “known by everyone” when one sees a thing frequently, but usually, it isn’t…

The internet is large and there is no way that everyone sees all of the same things as each other, especially when most of the “conversation” about the topic happens on a different platform.

That’s an interesting assumption.

If your first assumption is wrong then this is just a weird and rambling post. That is somehow about bears.

Yeah I absolutely still don’t understand what this supposed Bear meme thing is… like I guess some girl chose to be in a room with a bear instead of in a room with a man? Was it just a meme? I have no idea what is going on or why everyone is so upset about it it seems like something to just divert attention away from something else

A bear is a known a danger and really doesn’t care about you unless you piss it off. In fact, loud noises might just scare it away even if a brown bear.

While most men are probably safe enough to have around, enough are unsafe or just generally give off that vibe that women don’t want to be alone with them and a loud noise won’t scare them away. You might “know” you’re safe but they have zero reason to trust you.

Sure she might get someone who wants to work together to be mutually safe and will make efforts to leave her be otherwise, but she might also get someone who stands just a bit too close, who starts trying to “help” just a bit physically, or even who starts to get frustrated when they don’t get some kind of reward for just being some minimum level of decent. And if they’re really unlucky they get someone who just sees the isolation of the situation as an opportunity.

The bear is a known quantity. The man could be anything and there are far too many examples of every part of the spectrum. At least the bear won’t sexually assault her even at the worst.

Well that’s just ridiculous… a bear is a wild animal who will fucking maul you to death and eat you and doesn’t care about you at all … a man is a human being, and human beings can be reasoned with… I don’t knoooooowwwwww… this whole thing just, again, sounds like a way to get the masses riled up about something that really doesn’t matter and doesn’t really even make any kind of logical sense really in the grand scheme of things… it just seems like something to argue about for argument’s sake… it’s a good debate topic but that’s about it… be it resolved that men are worse than bears?? LOL I don’t know whole thing is kind of silly to me… but thank you so much for your explanation of it
It's rage bait. It just a polarizing content meant to rile up the masses and make us argue and bicker. It takes some societal grievances and amplifies them needlessly.
Well it sure worked haha even on Lemmy good old social conditioning
There’s plenty of polarizing content, especially online. I think it’s a good idea to talk about how we react to it. There are reactions which amplify the polarization, but perhaps also reactions that bring people together in understanding each other? At least I hope so. I just don’t know what is best, to ignore suspected bait, to argue a point, to listen, to call out bad faith actors. I don’t know.

I like how they took the time to explain it extremely well as to why us women feel this way, and your response was simply “lol nah that’s bullshit”.

I’d much rather run into a bear in the woods than run into a man like you in the woods.

Wildly enough… get ready for this one… I’m a chick. I took the time to say thank you so much for explaining it. But you can’t honestly genuinely tell me that you would rather be faced with a literal wild bear from actual nature, than another human being… that’s something for a therapist and not for the internet… and if you’re one of those chicks who genuinely feels that terrified of men, you need to speak to somebody because it’s not natural. And if you’re one of those chicks that gets wildly crazily madly offended to the point where they think they’d rather be trapped in a room with a wild animal with teeth and Claws that see you as food then be around another human being with an opinion, you also need a therapist, because it’s the internet. It’s not life or death… which it absolutely would be with a whole actual bear in the room.
A bear wouldn’t possibly beat or torture me or rape me. A bear wouldn’t try to kidnap me and lock me in its basement as its personal sex slavem A man might. A bear would simply try to eat me or run away, it’s predictable. But go off about how it’s totally safe to run into a strange man in the woods as a woman. 🙄
…yikes. Have fun living in your world. So glad I don’t live there.
As a guy, I don’t know shit about women, but bears are absolutely famous for being unpredictable. That’s why they’re considered dangerous. Not like moose, which are dangerous for being gigantic and incredibly dumb.

Bears also love in the woods, so it’s pretty normal for bears to be there. There’s a decent chance it’s just minding its business. I wouldn’t want to be around a bear, but I also wouldn’t want to be around a man with bad intentions.

Humans are also absolutely famous for being unpredictable, fwiw

Like just rearrange your sentence… men also live on planet Earth so it’s pretty normal for men to be there there’s a decent chance it’s just minding it’s business I wouldn’t want to be around a man but I also wouldn’t want to be around a man with bad intentions do you see how shitty that sounds when you say you don’t want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions? All bears will eat you not all men will rape you

men also live on planet Earth

This means nothing. We’re talking about wild animals in their natural habitat. Most animals in their natural habitat want to be left alone. Humans are not natural prey or threats to bears, so they generally wouldn’t want to fight or hunt a human.

don’t want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions?

I think that’s something that needs to be taken up with men (because it’s impossible to pick out just the ones with bad intentions).

That’s part of the problem.

The other part of the problem is the fact that being alone in the woods and spotting a bear minding its business sounds like a normal event. Being alone in the woods and spotting a strange man sounds like an abnormal event.

Bears don’t really hunt humans. Some men do hunt women. And there’s enough of them (and it could be any man) that a lot of women are afraid of strange men.

Take it up with the men.

Another part of the problem is seeing a man in the woods and Assuming he’s a murderer instead of thinking oh maybe he’s geocaching or maybe he’s hunting or maybe he’s collecting mushrooms or maybe he’s a photographer or maybe he just likes being in the woods or maybe he’s going fishing or maybe he has a family that he’s providing for or maybe he’s an artist like there are so many other things to think of a man in the woods then oh my God this man is going to rape murder and stalk me to death I’m going to die. The ‘othering’ of men is an actual danger to society.

Men aren’t raised by bears… maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.

maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.

Lmao, so you’re just sexist, huh?

Sounds like everyone on this threat is… men aren’t inherently fucking dangerous just because you are scared of them

I think you need to work on your perspective-taking skills.

It seems like what’s happening is that women on social media are sharing that they feel inherently unsafe around strange men in remote and unexpected places, and your reaction is “That hurts my feelings as a man, and those women are wrong!”…

If you’re not dangerous, that’s great. Your feelings for assuming you’re being generalized are valid.

If a woman reacts to you, unprompted, with fear, I think it’s important to understand the reasons why she might react that way, rather than be angry about her fear. Frankly, getting angry at someone’s fear would most likely reinforce that fear. And I think understanding would help reduce the anger you feel.

It’s very interesting to me that everybody thinks I’m a man.
You’re right, my apologies for assuming.
I see you’re one of the 2/3 of women who haven’t been sexually assaulted by a man. That’s good, I’m glad for you. But, as a man and in view of those statistics, I have to say it’s entirely justified for most women to prefer the bear.
That there is not true as well… I’ve been assaulted more than most. I’ve been a sex worker. But I’ve also been in the woods and seen what an actual bear looks like and did not fucking stick around. It’s a bear… I don’t know what everybody doesn’t get about that it’s a bear.

Alright, so I’m on team “alone in the woods with a bear”, but since you want to talk statistics, let’s talk statistics and the heteronormativity inherent in your statistics.

The figure I’m familiar with is that 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted. Maybe you have a figure that says 1/3, that’s fine. But crucially, these figures do not say who did it. What you’ve made is an assumption that women only get sexually assaulted by men. Personally, I think that the vast, vast majority of sexual assaults on women are done by men. But not all. I don’t believe you can transfer those two statistics - women sexually assaulted and women sexually assaulted by a man - 1:1.

Let me explain where I’m coming from. Half of transgender and nonbinary people have been sexually assaulted. That’s double the number of women! This factor, double, is consistent across sources I’ve seen that investigate both figures with the same methodology. You might have a source that says 1/3 of women are sexually assaulted, that’s fine, but the ones that investigate rates for both women and trans people say it’s twice as many trans people.

I could go ahead and assume, if I wanted, that half of all trans people have been sexually assaulted by a cis person. That’s the same assumption you made that 1/3 or 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted by a man. But it’s a bad assumption. I know lots of trans people who’ve been sexually assaulted, and most of the time it was by a fellow trans person. You see, trans people have our own community that’s isolated from the cisgender dating scene as a matter of safety, and that’s means isolated, lonely people let their guard down around fellow transes and the victims can’t get away from their abusers, nor are trans friends of trans abusers willing to give up a social network in which the abuser is embedded. It’s messy and disgusting and it wouldn’t be a problem if cis people just accepted us, but it’s where we are. I would be wrong to assume all rapists of trans people are cis people.

And I read way too deep into your comment and got a vibe that you were making the assumption that all sexual abusers of women are men. You probably don’t actually think that and didn’t mean to make any kind of implication along those lines. So I’m just leaving this comment as a general reminder not to use heteronormativity to inform our statistical analyses.

and it’s entirely justified for a devout religious person to avoid sin.

and i will think they are an asshole if they go around telling me how sinful and awful i am for not believing what they believe.

It’s just a way to illustrate how a lot of women feel around men. No one is actually going into the woods to meet a bear.
Made me realize (hyperbole) how literal people are, how ready some are to dig their heels in and not interested in listening at all. If one ever had a conversation with a women (hyperbole), the unsafe feeling is something that comes up pretty often (I guess the women has to feel safe around you - so maybe there is that) and is sadly based on personal negative experiences they had.
I agree, This polarization is something I wish we had a strategy against. Or, at least, the knowledge to identify something as likely to result in heel-digging. The reason I believe we should discuss this meme here is not to figure out the statistics of wildlife, but to gain insights about how certain things affect us, and what type of response is desired and helpful.
At least for me the question is how to talk to people who don’t want to listen. And the easiest answer is obviously not to, but that does not work in long term since it just enforces the existing echo chambers.

I read somewhere and like to mention it to other guys when it comes up in conversation about the difference between a man’s and woman’s greatest fear on a date.

The man is usually scared of being laughed at or rejected. The woman is usually scared of being killed.

It kinda puts things into perspective for me.

For those that haven’t seen it, the bear meme is an article some lady wrote. A majority of women would rather be alone in the woods with a random bear, than a random man. Then she posted about getting hate mail for that.
Oh I read it as beer and was confused for a while

I would love to be in the woods with beer.

The “random” part does really take the fun out of it though.

Free beer is my favorite brand.

It’s not a maybe, that’s literally the entire point of the message. Unknown men are all too often kinda shitty because we have zero systems in place to teach men how to be good people and many systemic ways in which we’re told that we’re automatically better. We’re generally physically bigger, generally stronger, and, for the most part, taught to be entitled to a woman we happen to fancy.

But yes, you’ve read it correctly and we shouldn’t be getting upset but instead working on making ourselves more trustworthy. And it won’t happen in our lifetimes but it’ll be progress.

Who teaches you that you’re entitled to a woman you fancy?
Traditional Western media. The hero always gets the girl?
Le Roman de la Rose, a mediaeval French poem that informed the tropes of heterosexual media for the last thousand years.
I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.

It’s worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I’ve always thought that same thing, “I’m a good guy.”. But I’ve learned that it’s better to think, “i may think I’m a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off,” because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.

Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I’ve been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I’m putting someone in, but the vibes I’m giving off.

I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I’d never been looked at like that before.

I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don’t know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions…it was hot as hell out, and we figured she’d been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters…we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.

I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.

I went on a date with a woman many years ago and we had dinner. It’s was clear we weren’t vibing but we had a polite dinner and chatted dinner and on the way out insisted I could drive her home instead of her taking an Uber like she did to get there. I offered a couple times and she agreed. I dropped her off and watched from the car to make sure she made it inside. I had good intentions and didn’t intended to do anything more than drop her off. But man looking back, I wish I would have just waited with her for the Uber to show up. I bet that was uncomfortable for her.

I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife’s ear.

My wife responded “No, it’s good. He’s my husband.” When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was “checking to make sure I knew you.” My first response was “oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck.” I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if “I’m one of the good ones.”

Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that’s what’s fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can’t treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with “men are shitty, so I’m forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones”.

Well, no they didn’t apologize. I didn’t expect them because of the situation. I was literally walking quickly through a crowd of people. They only had a very small window to talk before I was already moving away with my wife in hand. By the time I noticed and stopped and asked my wife, the good samaritan was far enough away in a crowded bar that she wouldn’t be able to say anything.

Maybe I don’t take offense because she didn’t treat me like a suspected harasser. She didn’t treat me like anything. She looked out for my wife. I greatly appreciate that she was looking out for customers that drank too much. That was the end of my thoughts.

Why should I be offended that the club was trying to make sure their customers were safe? I guess I would be offended if they stopped me and separated us and asked 20 questions, but that isn’t the case. The interaction took maybe 5 seconds and I didn’t noticed until I was pulling on her arm and had some resistance. I looked back and by that time she was pulling herself toward me.

and plenty of women think they are ‘the good ones’ are an abusive psycho.
And George Washington Carver was genius with peanuts. Whats that got to do with the topic at hand?
If men were a minority group, this would lead to calls for the male community to police itself and report suspicious behaviour to the authorities.
women aren’t a minority.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group

In terms of sociology, economics, and politics, a demographic that takes up the smallest fraction of the population is not necessarily labelled the “minority” if it wields dominant power. In the academic context, the terms “minority” and “majority” are used in terms of hierarchical power structures.

Minority group - Wikipedia

This is why I like the term “marginalised group.” But maybe it has its own definition that I’m not using correctly or something