The Picard ManeuverIt seems like an inefficient setup
GiganI wonder what it would be like if passing the Bar was required to be a police officer. There would be way less police officers, that’s for sure.
SpaceNoodleNah, there would probably be fewer.
someone graduated from grammar nazi school with honors
The only good Nazi is a Grammar Nazi
While not harmful, they are still wrong, most of the time.
Both. Since native english speakers use both in a regular manner, both versions are correct.
hswolfthat would drastically reduce the numbers, a better alternative would be an easier exam with regular re-evaluations, so they keep updated on current regulations
also that would leave a nice groundwork for sueability, since they are supposed to know the laws they didn’t enforce correctly
There would be almost none. If you are capable of being a lawyer and have the education to be one, you wouldn’t choose to be a cop.
SotuandusoUnless it pays well and you recognize the need for law enforcement on some level, and don’t have to worry about the corrupt system because it’s already been gutted by this change.
Why not? If you needed to pass the bar (or similar exam) and you had to complete police training we’d have to pay police a pretty good salary. They would be comparable with doctors in terms of qualifications and career investment.
XhieronNot to shit on my own profession (about this–there are plenty of other reasons for that), but lawyer education is nowhere near doctor education.
To paraphrase one of my professors, “Ever wonder why in the legal profession you can get a terminal degree after only three years without having to write a dissertation?” [Answer: It’s because lawyers control their own profession, along with the government that controls how professions are regulated.]
On the OP, I don’t think police should be required to pass the bar exam. The reason is that the bar exam, and by extension law school, covers much more material than police should ever realistically need to know, even being generous. Cops don’t need to know which agents owe their principals fiduciary duties, for example. They don’t need to be able to articulate contract remedies or determine when a party might have a prevailing argument against personal jurisdiction.
They should, however, have to pass a version of the UBE that covers criminal law and procedure in their jurisdiction, and they should have continuing education requirements. [And in many if not most or all US jurisdictions, they already do. --they do in mine, at least.] More importantly, they need to carry a bond.
In order for any of this to matter, however, first a court has to hold that the police owe a duty not only to the public at large but also directly to those in immediate need. In the US, the state of the law with respect to police and other state actors vis-a-vis victims of the torts and crimes of others is reprehensible. Take a look at Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005), DeShaney v. Winnebago County, 489 U.S. 189 (1989) (“Poor Joshua!”), and Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d. 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981). And if you like podcasts, Radiolab has covered this.
In short, the police need to be bound by a legal duty to rescue, and members of the public need a private right of action against agencies (police and others, including agencies like DCS) to whom private remedies have been surrendered when those agencies fail to perform their duties as required. It would require an upending of the American “system” in favor of something closer to civil law jurisprudence (e.g., the European continent). And it’s desperately needed and long overdue.
No Special Duty | Radiolab Podcast
Not true. There are quite a few cops with law degrees. It tends to get you right in the door at a higher level.
Typical lawyer pay also isn’t as good as you might think. There’s a few partners at major firms who make bank, but they’re sitting on a pile of kids a few years out of school and struggling to make their student loan payments. Pay varies wildly by practice, too. Want to get involved in civil rights organizations? That’s great and all, but you’re not going to be paid well.
Th4tGuyIII mean they're not wrong - I wouldn't expect every policeman out there to be Phoenix Wright, but at the very least they should actually have to learn the laws that they're supposed to be enforcing
Can you stop resisting? Look at what you made them do!
They don’t even abide the existing laws and rights.
“Let’s try make this guy declare without a lawyer”
Yeah, whenever I see videos where cops tell them that they are not cooperating when being silent after pleading the fifth, I get furious.
You are NOT compelled to answer any questions until a lawyer is present. Not answering questions does not and in no way constitute being uncooperative. Cooperative simply means following lawful orders, so even refusing to follow unlawful orders is not obstruction, uncooperative or whatever excuse they want to put on you.
Sadly, it’s probably better to let the manchild have his power trip and complain about it afterwards. Prevents acute lead poisoning.
A nuance to this is that if you’re talkative until one specific question, and then start pleading the fifth, that’s not going to work out quite so well. You need to start from a place of “I will answer questions when I have a lawyer present”.
Also, this all works better if you lack melanin in your skin.
Cooperating for them just means ignoring your rights and doing everything as they say…
MushuChupacabraLaw Enforcement should be a profession, just like doctors and nurses.
Formal education. Licensing with a college whose role is to protect the public. Malpractice insurance. Requirements to remain current, and eligible to practice.
The PantserHow would you feel about police making $200,000 {or more since they will need hazard pay} a year to drive around and or sit in a car. There is no way a city could afford to hire enough cops to patrol a city. Yes they should have to learn the laws they enforce and carry liability insurance but there is no way we should force them into doctor/nurse level education without equal pay.
How much do you think nurses make?
Hell, how much do they think doctors make? My friend is a doctor and his wife is a vet, I’m pretty sure combined they don’t make that much
They might have a ton of student loan debt (+vets don’t make much) so their after-loan income is fairly modest.
Meh, where I live police are paid a little bit over the median wage, and they have to get a bachelor’s degree (~3 years) in law enforcement.
Police officers make anywhere from 43k to 63k based on a quick Google, getting massive pay bumps as they are promoted up to over 100k for police chiefs, not to mention hazard pay and usually amazing benefits. Nurses make 56k to 88k, also generally with really good benefits and a lot of overtime. It would only be a 10-20k pay bump and I would love that if it meant fewer cops with much more professional training.
These are some really low numbers, probably from tiny towns with no resources. Police officers (and RNs) in cities make six figures easily.
Police especially are public servants and their pay is public. Just look it up in your area. It’s very common for regular officers to make six figures with overtime.
XtallllTeachers need a 4 year degree and a state license, and they don’t get $200,000 or hazard pay.
chickenYeah but for teachers it’s not a problem for the sort of people who want that particular job to actually get it. For cops I’d rather the people who inherently want to be cops to be outcompeted by a larger applicant pool of more educated people and have to get some other job.
eh, i dont think you know what youre talking about here - education recruitment is a nightmare.
I’m working with the premise of the above comment that it’s fine to disagree with another aspect of what it says. You’re right that I don’t know anything about the state of education recruitment.
Law enforcement shouldn’t be a profession.
If you’re curious about the downvotes, I imagine it’s because you didn’t really state why you stand by your stance.
As really it’s a pointless comment that adds nothing to the discussion.
It is, in most of the civilized world anyways
odd how the “civilized world” seems to have such low standards for civilization.
You just insulted ‘no place in particular’. Gj.
Thanks! I wasn’t actually, but you do have to understand what I’m talking about. ;)
Well it sounded like an insult.
☂️-you are probably considering some places to be civilized when they really shouldnt
you’re probably making an assumption you probably shouldn’t
In the civilized world cops get arrested when they kill civilians, they still kills civilians of course but at least they get arrested when they do it.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it civilized world, but yeah for basically every country that belongs to the so called “1st world” except the US it is and it takes a few years to become a police officer.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it civilized world, but yeah for basically every country that belongs to the so called “1st world” except the US it is and it takes a few years to become a police officer.
LucidlethargyLike where?
UK, Germany, France, Ukraine, Spani, Italy, … should I go on?
Germany
You don’t need to study to become a police officer in the US? OMFG! You have to study 1.5-2 years in the UK and then spend months in the field under supervision as an apprentice.
Sorta, kinda, depends on the jurisdiction. This is one of those things where you almost have to treat the US as 50 separate countries rather than one big one.
There are 2 year associate degree programs for police. A full degree or masters also gets you better placement, like going plainclothes detective day one. Federal level, like FBI or Marshalls, generally require higher education. Average beat cops in some 'burb, though? May or may not require anything more than a High School degree or GED.
The duration of the training in the Police Academy varies for the different agencies. It usually takes about 13 to 19 weeks on average but can last up to six months.
golawenforcement.com/…/how-long-does-it-take-to-b…
Up to six months… Yikes.
In the software engineer industry, if you spent a year in a coding bootcamp, I still wouldn’t trust you to know what you’re doing.
Ehhhh… That’s misleading.
In many places to be eligible for the academy you’d have to have an associates or bachelors degree.
But again, location dependant.
But a degree in what because if it’s a degree in literature that’s useless. I suspect no cop has a degree in literature
Usually called a criminal justice degree, includes basic law classes, administration, stuff like that. Offered in a lot of county colleges where it’s required.
Not that it results in a better cop at all imo, just saying the timeframe of a max of 6 months throughout the US is really misleading.
PugJesusJust two years of prior “responsible work experience” required here in Maryland.
There are police academics?
There should be films about them to publicise their existence.
SIX MONTHS? what’s this, theoretical physics? just give them a gun and tell them to go about their way.
hell, most of the training in police academy is probably done with pantone color charts teaching the exact skin tone where murder becomes acceptable.
You just described law enforcement in most first would nations.
Ah, so not here in the US.
They only learn the laws that have fines/generate revenue for the county/state, or that give them the ability to physically harm someone. The amount of times I have seen a cop run a stop, turn/merge without signaling, or speed without the lights or siren on has taught me that.
A friend of mine is a prison guard, in Norway, and from what I recall him telling me, a solid 6 months (out of 2 years) of the education he took to become a guard was spent studying law. It’s probably more comprehensive if you want to become a police officer.
Yeah, it’s always weird looking at all the ACAB messages when you live somewhere where cops actually have to have some form of education… It takes 3.5 years in school to become a cop around here and sure we still have issues with bad employees, but at the same level you would expect in any job…
Man it makes me said to be here. I only see other, actually developed countries tackling shit at its root rather than nonstop bandaid fixes for everything.
Always gonna be ask for forgiveness not permission in the US.