The right doesn’t have a problem with people refusing to vote for right-wing politicians because they want to punish them for not being right-wing enough.

Meanwhile the far-left goes on and on about how voting is pointless and you’re a lib if you think voting can effect change, and then expect you to be insulted by that term

I think the far left is too perfectionist. They want some sort of mythical candidate that will check all the boxes and somehow still be electable in a general election, but that person isn’t coming. Meanwhile, the Right usually rallies the wagon around whichever sad sack-of-shit they’ve found. You’re not going to get who you want every time and you’re not going to get the change you want everytime. It’s about setting the conditions for that change to come that’s important, otherwise you’re just handing the initiative to the Right to make the change that they want.

Not wanting your candidate to arm a genocide is perfectionist?

It’s not productive to label everyone who thinks the masses should hold power as “far left”. Unless you believe only the betters of humanity can make decisions and anyone getting the shaft should only grin and bare it.

Not accepting that the opposition will do more than arm the genocide is the problem here. On top of ALL the other Rosie he has already done, and promises to do.

You’ll risk losing American democracy over a single issue that is going to be FAR worse under the opposition.

Everthing said that you’re responding to is 100% true of the agenda you’ve hitched your wagon to. It’s manufactured outrage. And it’s childish.

Joe Biden can’t claim to care about American Democracy while ignoring a majority of your voters on core issues.

I get that you have your propaganda you need to shill, but as everyone has already told you- Trump will do the same, and much worse additionally. You just refuse to acknowledge this because it’s not part of your programming.

If you have all the information, educate me. I have a hard time understanding people who don’t dispute their is a genocide in Gaza, yet they still vote shame anti genocide voters.

Do you believe Biden and Israel is committing a full on genocide in Gaza but trump will start genocides in other places so it’s better to vote Biden?

Or do you believe what Biden and Israel are doing is relatively minor and would be much worse under a trump presidency?

I believe Israel is- absolutely. However, I believe that they’d be doing it without Biden being involved in any way. In fact, they’re so stockpiled that they’re barely using what Biden is sending.

And directly accusing Biden of genocide is about as ignorant as one can be on the subject. He has no authority to commit genocide in a country he’s not at war with, or has any ability to dictate such actions. Your manufactured outrage and goalpost moving is not something that the majority of people stand behind.

Again- The atrocities carried out by Israel is not something that wouldn’t be happening if America had nothing to do with it. But I’m sure you know this already- it just stands in the way of your agenda.

OK, just to clarify, you believe Biden has no leavage to stop Israel and they aren’t reliant on the tens of billions in weapons aid or the diplomatic help we gift them?

It’s pretty well known and documented fact. It’s not a belief. It’s just…. Reality.

I know you’ve been told this isn’t the case, and that cognitive dissonance will stand in the way of you accepting this, but reality doesn’t really care how you feel about it.

I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I would hope Biden has leverage, Israel is a client state after all. But it’s also true that the Israeli government is fiercely independent as you said earlier.

If the US weapon shipements don’t matter to Israel, Biden should hold shipments while he investigates crimes of genocide. He should also withhold diplomatic cover. That will help Biden at home, he can better show he’s trying to stop the genocide. And it may even get the far RW government ruling over Israel voted out of office. Biden is the best candidate in 2024, but I believe he can only win if he proves he’s doing everything to help the ME stay out of war. And what he has been doing isn’t enough IMO.

Fair enough. But my original point is that people are so committed to this single issue to push Biden to do they right thing that they’re withholding their vote and suggesting others do so- while wholeheartedly acknowledging that it would be exponentially worse under Trump.

This is why so many people think they’re right-wing propaganda trolls. Because with what we know about what Trump has done, and promises to do- how could anyone suggest not voting as an option?

I think the difference between us, you’d rather blame voters and I’d rather blame leaders. I used to blame voters as well until I realized very online people, who engage in politics, live in a different reality from average voters. And very online people are a tiny minority of voters. Most voters hate spending time learning about politics. If you don’t believe me, do phone banking, talk to normal voters.

So when I’m say things like Joe Biden is risking this election being complicit with genocide, I’m not predicting how very online people are going to vote. I’m saying average voters seeing a horrible genocide, seeing the world on fire, are going to be less likely to vote for the one currently in the oval office.

No, the difference between us is that I don’t think sacrificing our democracy because the chosen candidate doesn’t do EXACTLY what I want them to is a good idea.

In fact, it’s a selfish and very fucking stupid idea that is going to hurt A LOT of people.

What am I sacrificing brother? I am one voter in a solid red state. My vote, like most Americans, doesn’t matter in the Electoral College. Why are you mad at me?

So since you believe your vote doesn’t matter, how about you stay out of a discussion with people who believe their votes DO matter?

Because the rest of us are trying to keep America afloat and out of the hands of a tyrant that would sell it off to the highest bidder.

You lost the plot, telling voters they can’t criticize a president while you sanctimoniously claim you are saving democracy. You really can’t see the problem with that?

Show me where I said they can’t criticize him and we can continue this discussion- otherwise, we’re done here.

how about you stay out of a discussion with people who believe their votes DO matter?

You just told me I can’t criticize. Also the Electoral College absolutely disenfranchises most voters, I can’t believe I’m arguing with a fellow Biden voter that it doesn’t.

Continue blaming voters for Biden lackluster re-election campaign. If he continues this and loses, I’m sure the history books will give Joe a pass and blame all those voters he’s failing to enthuse.

Right, and you just told me you’re lot a voter.

Why would I tell you I don’t vote? I’ve voted in over 25 elections in the last 8 years, nearly every election I qualify for.

I encourage people to vote all the time. I’m just pointing out some Biden voters are going to leave the presidential race blank in 2024 because Biden supports genocide. And that’s Biden own damn fault.