MicroWaveApr 14, 2024

Anti-Trans Missouri A.G. Can Now Access Trans People’s Medical Records

https://lemmy.world/post/14278091

Anti-Trans Missouri A.G. Can Now Access Trans People’s Medical Records - Lemmy.World

A judge ordered Planned Parenthood to hand records of transgender care over to Andrew Bailey. A St. Louis judge has ruled that Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey is entitled [https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/government-politics/court-rules-missouri-ag-entitled-to-certain-planned-parenthood-transgender-care-records/article_d65b6842-f8d0-11ee-9814-e7625b653629.html] to Planned Parenthood’s transgender care records, ordering the nonprofit to turn over some of its most sensitive files to the man who has built his unelected political career on restricting health care access for trans people. In his Thursday decision, Circuit Judge Michael Stelzer wrote that Bailey can collect documents under Missouri’s consumer protection statute that aren’t protected under federal mandate, namely the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, better known as HIPAA. “It is clear from the statute that the Defendant has the broad investigative powers when the consumer is in possible need of protection and there is no dispute in this matter,” wrote Stelzer. “Therefore, the Defendant is entitled to some of the requested documents within his [Civil Investigative Demand].” Bailey, who last year attempted to implement a ban [https://newrepublic.com/post/172330/missouri-anti-trans-health-care-ban] on gender-affirming care for people of all ages, was quick to celebrate the decision, calling it a “big day” for the state.

Show threadpezhoreApr 14, 2024

"My team will get to the bottom of how this clandestine network of clinics has subjected children to puberty blockers and irreversible surgery, often without parental consent,” he wrote in a statement.

Ffs, he makes it sound like toddlers are getting snatched off the streets to get “trans’ed”.

Give me one fucking case anywhere in this state where a minor was given surgery without parental consent. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 15, 2024
Why should it matter if the parents give consent if the minor cant consent? A parents could consent to their child getting a face tattoo, but it doesnt mean a kid can consent to that.
Show threadquindracoApr 15, 2024
I don’t understand your question. Children can’t consent, so when they would need to consent to something, their guardians are asked to consent for them. That’s how e.g. all medical surgeries are performed on children.
Show threadCableMonsterApr 15, 2024
So then what if the child wants a face tattoo, should the parent be able to consent for them?
Show threadquindracoApr 15, 2024

What do you mean, “should”?

Legal guardians do handle consent for their wards, which is why circumcisions are legal - there’s no meaningful legal distinction here between a face tattoo and a circumcision.

That’s how things are. If you’re asking me how things ought to be, that’s an absurd question to ask someone on the internet.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 15, 2024
Of course there is a legal distinction and practical difference between a face tatoo and circumcision, that is just silly. So you are perfectly fine with a minor permanently changing themselves just as long as their parents dont disagree?
Show threadquindracoApr 15, 2024
Why do you care /what does it matter what I’m perfectly fine with? I’ve been describing the way the country’s legal system works to you. I’m not a lawmaker, I can’t change any of these rules.
Show threadCableMonsterApr 15, 2024

No, that is not how the legal system works…

I care because children dont have the ability to consent, and if they are being abused then they have the right to be protected.

Show threadquindracoApr 15, 2024

No, that is not how the legal system works…

In your mind, how does our legal system handle children’s consent issues if not the legal guardians, then? How do you think it works when a child wants to go on a field trip in school, for example? How is consent determin3d?

Show threadCableMonsterApr 16, 2024
The parent can consent to things that dont directly harm kids. The part in question is what direct harm is, and you guys seem to think permanent changes of their biology (if that is the right word) is not direct harm and that is where the disagreement is.
Show threadquindracoApr 16, 2024
100% of all surgeries harm kids too, including circumcisions. That’s part of the definition of surgery. You seem to have a fundamentally flawed understanding of several things, including the basic concept of consent. I sincerely hope you educate yourself, especially before (if ever) you have any children of your own. Consent is an important concept that no-one seems to have taught you about.
Show threadCableMonsterApr 16, 2024

Circumcision is mild harm at best but it can arguably be a hygiene benefit. Under your definition of harm, then exercising is harmful also because you have to tear your muscles a bit, but as we both know we are talking about the net benefit.

And maybe you can educate yourself and learn that kids can consent.

Show threadtreefrogApr 17, 2024

Kids can’t consent as true consent requires someone to be properly informed of the consequences of the action.

The only other time I’ve heard this nonsense is out of the mouths of pedophiles by the way. If that’s not how you identify, or care to be identified, I suggest you educate yourself on consent and seriously question whatever information source you learned this nonsense from.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 17, 2024
So then can a child get a face tattoo with the parents consent?
Show threadtreefrogApr 18, 2024
If medically needed, yes, in all 50 states this is legal.
Show threadCableMonsterApr 18, 2024
So if the parent and child both claim its medically necessary then its okay?
Show threadtreefrogApr 18, 2024
No, that’s the job of doctors. It’s the job of parents to consent to the treatment.
Show threadCableMonsterApr 18, 2024
What if they were all captured by an ideology that said that for the kid to be happy they have to get a tattoo on their face and if they didnt they would probably commit suicide?
Show threadtreefrogApr 18, 2024

So essentially, your argument that is that the doctors have been captured by a harmful ideology. In that case we still have parents that can choose not to consent to the procedure.

It takes both. But you keep seeming to argue that it should be up to the state to decide what is best for the parent and the child.

In other words, you’ve been captured by the nanny state ideology. So much for small government hey

Show threadCableMonsterApr 18, 2024

Not all doctors are captured by an ideology, but all you need is some of them. I am probably one of the more anti-government normal people you will meet, and I think the one job a government has is to protect people from harm of others.

So lets go back to the tattoo example, if there was an ideology that said face tattoos are normal and perfectly fine, and the parent believes it, and the beliefs of the parents easily transfer to the kid, and they both agree. They find a tattoo artist and doctor that have the same ideology and they agree. Me and you are watching this and seeing this ideology doesnt make sense and that kid will be directly and severely harmed for the rest of their life for getting a face tattoo, what should we do?

Show threadtreefrog

Look I’m not going to play a hypothetical game with you. For one because you’re creating too many hypotheticals.

By gender affirming care, what we’re referring to is not permanent surgery but hormone blockers. You are comparing hormone blockers to face tattoos. You are comparing hormone blockers, a medical procedure, to a cosmetic one, a permanent cosmetic one.

So no, I’m not playing that game.

If we want to talk about gender affirming care rather than facial tattoos, if hormone blockers and a minor lead too long-term damage a doctor would be liable. So the doctor better make damn sure that they’re not captured by a harmful ideology and actually doing what is best for the patient. Otherwise they’re going to get sued by that child when it becomes an adult.

So you’re hypothetical situation is a bunch of bullshit like every other time I’ve talked to you. You give disingenuous arguments and don’t have anything of substance to say.

And I’m still not convinced that you’re not a pedophile based on your whole kids can consent comment.

Apr 18, 2024 at 2:22pmWeb
Show threadCableMonsterApr 18, 2024

They reason you dont “play my game” is becuase it takes you out of the ideological capture and looks at the issue impartially.

Hormone blockers after X period of time do cause permanent change or damage. I dont claim to know exactly what the time period is, but it obviously does. Also there are surgeries happening to minors. The question you have to ask is what is the desistance rate for minors? Not detransition, desistance.

Show threadtreefrogApr 18, 2024

It’s not looking at the issue impartially. It’s looking at the issue through a distorted lens based on a cosmetic procedure rather than a medical one because you want to prove your own ideology.

As for the rest of your comment, the endocrine society has stated that hormone blockers are safe for transgender youth. They’re also used for youth that have precocious puberty, in other words you that are going through puberty early.

Harmone blockers have been used in medicine since the 1980s. They’ve only become an issue now because the right has ideological issues with trans people.

Most of the medical establishment believes that they are safe. The experts believe they are safe. You believe that the experts are wrong and have been captured by a harmful ideology. The majority of them. Not a doctor that’s agreeing to a face tattoo. Most of the medical establishment thinks the government needs to get the fuck out of medicine.

Again, so much for your small government bullshit.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 18, 2024

Puberty blockers used for normal testable medical disorders, I agree but that is different than for trans related things. Do you actually think if a 13 year old takes homone blockers till they are 18 and then stops their body is not permanently harmed or altered?

The question you have to answer is what is the desistance rate for minors? Not detransition, desistance. For your own ideology that number is super important.

Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

It’s a medical disorder. It’s a normal testable medical disorder. Thank you for admitting puberty blockers are safe and have been used since the 1980s.

Now please link me evidence that surgery is happening on minors in the United States. Because if that’s what your argument in fact hinges on show me the evidence.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024

Yes it absolutely is a medical disoder, I 100% agree, but its a medical disorder that you cand directly test for.

Its not a ton of minors getting surguries, something like 300 a year, but that is not what the argument hinges on, but I can find the data if you really want it.

So again, what is the desistance rates for minors? This is the important number you dont seem to want to find out.

Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

The research on desistance has methodology issues. I just read an article on it.

kqed.org/…/the-controversial-research-on-desistan…

Now surgery on minors. Show me the evidence that this is happening.

The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth | KQED

For decades, follow-up studies of transgender kids have shown that a substantial majority eventually ceased to identify as transgender. But some gender researchers say that research is faulty.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024

Here you go.

You can not agree with certain stats, but obviously many kids are either confused or being actively influence, what is the percentage that desist?

Number of transgender children seeking treatment surges in U.S.

About 42,000 U.S. children ages 6 to 17 were diagnosed with gender dysphoria in 2021, nearly triple the number in 2017, a unique data analysis for Reuters found.

Reuters
Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

Your super hung up on this desistance thing which I already addressed to you in multiple comments.

As to surgery, I don’t think that top surgery is an issue (or hormones). I did read that article and I don’t know how I feel about children getting mascectomies and apparently that does happen. I wouldn’t need more information on their specific medical diagnosis and why that was determined to be necessary to have an informed opinion about it.

I do think it’s suspicious and I’ll give you that.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024
You address it by saying that they wont get diagnosed with gender dysphoria, but the problem is that I dont just believe that is the truth. If you look at where all these kids are getting diagnosed or say they are trans, its highly concentrated in areas where the ideology encourages it. And if people think that “gender affirming care” for minors is good, more and more minors will be given hormones and have surgeries dont on them due to false diagnosis. If you claim this is not happening and wont increase then you are just obviously wrong. The issue here is that you have to step out of your ideology and see what is happening, and why its happening, and its not because there are suddenly something like 20 times more kids with gender dysphoria.
Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

Less than 300 kids a year get top surgery, bottom surgery isn’t happening at all.

And yes, misdiagnosis has happen. Which means we need better methodology rather than moral panic from the right.

The medical profession that is involved in this area is doing its best to improve the methodology. While the right is doing its best to promote its own harmful ideology based on religion, fear, and bigotry.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024

Less than 300 kids a year get top surgery, bottom surgery isn’t happening at all.

I literally linked you an article that you allegedly read and then told me the exact opposite thing it shows…

Sorry, but you seem to just be reading into things what you want and will not actually have an honest appraisal what is happening. If you cant get those basic things right when I show you evidence you will just use your bias to confirm what you wish.

Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

The last stat in the article was for 2021. 282 children received top surgery that year according to the graph in the article. How is that the opposite of what it shows or different from what I just said (less than 300 a year.)

Do you have similar feelings about circumcision? Just curious. I was circumcised as a child with no real medical basis (there was no diagnosis, only social norms propagated by a prude). And I wish it hadn’t happened. It feels like a violation of my sexual boundaries and bodily autonomy.

Yet, I see no moral outrage on this issue and kids are still being circumcised every day.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024
The data obviously shows an increasing trend so it is obviously above 300 unless you have different data. And you didnt even recognize this part as being wrong- “bottom surgery isn’t happening at all.”
Show threadtreefrogApr 20, 2024

Can you show me where it says bottom surgery is happening? I only see it mentioned top surgery in the article.

Did you have a response to my question about circumcision? I’m being serious here. Circumcision happens all of the time and is more destructive than top surgery and you don’t seem upset about that at all.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 20, 2024
Its in the article.
Show threadtreefrogApr 20, 2024

Okay, 56 over a three-year period. That’s less than 20 a year. And the article did not show it in a graph, so I missed it. I don’t know what those circumstances were, so I don’t have an informed opinion on those incidents. They are very rare though in a nation of millions. And, to put things in context, the AG is asking for all of Planned Parenthoods records regarding gender-affirming care. Including nonsurgical ones. In fact, the AG stated this was about hormones specifically.

So, what are your thoughts on circumcision? I sense no moral panic from you on this surgery, even though it’s performed on the genitals of minors and causes permanent damage to the sexual organs (loss of sensation). Or does your moral outrage only apply to minors with gender dysphoria and not healthy infants?

Seriously, if you don’t answer my question about circumcision, I’m done replying. Because I’m sensing a double standard here that implies your position is more about transphobia than ethics.

Show threadCableMonsterApr 20, 2024
I am done with this conversation you are just going to believe whatever you want.
Show threadtreefrogApr 21, 2024
Nah. You’re just transphobic. And this is about your fear. It has nothing to do about with kids genitals. Otherwise you would care about circumcision and you wouldn’t lie about the statistics, even after you posted them.
Show threadCableMonsterApr 21, 2024
Going to the “TRANSPHOBE!!!” line. Have a great life!
Show threadtreefrogApr 21, 2024
I’m just calling it how I see it. You don’t care about infants being circumcised. Why would I assume you actually care about trans children and it’s not just your fear?
Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

Hey I’m going to help you with that link real quick. The rates of desistance from kids that have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria is very very low. Kids that are not diagnosed with gender dysphoria are not receiving gender affirming care.

The desistance rates for kids that self-identified as trans are very high. But those kids aren’t getting gender-affirming care. It takes a medical diagnosis. And when there is a medical diagnosis the rates of desistance are very very low.

Now do you have actual evidence that surgeries are happening or is that just a talking point that you’re repeating?

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024

But those kids aren’t getting gender-affirming care.

How do you know? There are stories where kids do one appointment with a doctor and are diagnosed. You are making claims that are not provable. I am good at math and i can tell you that if the majority of kids that think they are trans later desist then a good sized portion of them are getting meds. How many kids could get meds they should not have before giving meds to kids is banned?

Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

Go back and reread what I said.

Without a gender dysphoria diagnosis gender affirming care does not happen. When there is a medical diagnosis, desistance rates are very low.

I know because it takes a diagnosis to get hormone blockers. They’re a prescription medication. How do you not understand this?

Show threadCableMonsterApr 19, 2024
Lets say I believe, how many are misdiagnosed? Its obviously not zero, so what is the number?
Show threadtreefrogApr 19, 2024

We don’t know what that number is as the studies have methodological issues. As I already stated.

But say it’s 10% and the suicide rate for youth with gender dyphoria is 20%. If you have 100 patients with gender dysphoria and you treat no one, 20 kids die. If you treat everyone all 100 kids live and 10 regret being put on hormones.

In this case doing nothing causes the most harm. Do no harm includes harm reduction and harms caused by not acting.

The Dr in this situation has an ethical duty to treat all of the patients. Even if desistance is a risk for some. Because death is the risk of doing nothing.