@Impossible_PhD I'm a cis man so feel free to ignore this question. OTOH, I'm asking this question from the point of view of a parent that might need to face this in the future if their kids start feeling that way.

Would be an endgoal a society were we're not longer man and woman, but just people? Would also help if people would not care how other people dress?

Context: I'm trying to raise my kids so they don't think in terms of 'this is an activity for men, this other one for women'.

@mdione @Impossible_PhD „No men and women“ no. „Less pressure from others“ yes. More self-determination. More options. Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“. It’s okay to stick to „traditional“ roles if that makes them happy - unless they press other to comply.

My main problem as a nonbinary person is, that others categorize me by sight and insist on their (binary) judgement, which is especially bad in german because of our totally binary gendered language.

Second problem, somewhat related: Too many places have two and only doors - real and metaphorical -, where a broader entrance made for all would be better for everyone.

So, let people find their gender (style). Find your own and enjoy the diversity. Don’t assume their gender (be neutral until they tell you) and don’t let them press you into their roles. Don’t build unnecessary categories and make rooms open, safe and suitable for all.

That would be my perfect (gender) world.

@jaddy @Impossible_PhD

> "No men and women" no.
> Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“.

I would just leave it as "styles". I think that all the current clasifications (LGBTQ+ and, yes, C[is]) are still clasifications that not necesarily reflect every body.

I have a she friend. She had a boy friend. Then she dated some women and men, so she was bi. Then two guys, so bigamous. Now back to one guy, and now a kid. What is she? What was she?

@jaddy @Impossible_PhD Damn character limit.

To me, just a person, my friend.

I understand that this sounds like "all lives matter", but again, I'm talking about the utopia I want.

@mdione @jaddy no, it doesn't.

It sounds like a white person saying "I don't see color."

These facets of ourselves are central to who we are and our experience in the world. Many, probably the significant majority of us, find a LOT of joy and vibrancy in our identities. I *like* being a lesbian, beyond just liking women, and neither you nor anyone else gets to take that away from me.

Especially as a member of the dominant group, it's not okay for someone--you--to try to collapse those things.

@Impossible_PhD @jaddy that's exactly what I'm trying to understand. I hope nothing I say here is taken as an attempt to negate what you want to do with yourself, maybe it's because I've been 'formatted' in a culture that does not have other words for this.

On one side it looks like you want to have a label for yourself. Ok, yes, naming things make them exist... maybe I should go and read... philosophy? epistemology?

I'm not sure anymore. It would be an interesting chat over some beverage.

@Impossible_PhD @jaddy Two things to note, if it makes any difference: I'm not from US, and I don't live there. Black people to me are just people with a culture at first sight quite different to mine.

Again, I understand currently some positions have to be taken strongly just to defend a space for them to exist. I just wish you didn't had to.

@mdione

Ah! Now I think I get your point. You'd like to free all beings from the (internal/external) burden/pressure to find/have/build an identity (and labels) by making the differences disappear, right?

But wouldn't that make us like drones? Not being seen as individuals, interchangeable.

I guess it would deny most basic questions all humans ask: Who am I, what's the purpose of my life, what am I good for? And ultimately: Why should I live?

But that's just academic. A society without noticable differences is simply not possible. See Intersectionality. We are not interchangeable, because in certain aspects, we need different things than others.

Trivial example: "Everyone likes and eats pineapple" - "Ah sorry, I'm allergic to that. Please don't give me anything with pineapple". So, in a way, allergies kind of define this person.

In a society where pineapple stuff is thought to be common, they must take care of themself, inform others of their special needs, rely on their acknowledgement and respect or they will suffer, get ill or die.

Meaning: There'll always be a norm, a mainstream, a kind of common majority, therefore there'll alwys be some who don't fit, can't fit, suffer, get ill or die from it.

Every difference to the (non existent) "norm" comes with some burden, because of the difference. (you scrape along the norm simple by being yourself)

I agree that we should lessen that burden, but denying or being blind to it won't help. It would only make being different harder.

So, the best way to make life easier is to embrace diversity, rsp celebrate infinite diversity in infinite combinations 🖖

HTH

@Impossible_PhD