Doc ImpossibleHoly shit. I just talked a cis guy on the internet down from "Let kids be kids" and got him to see why gender-affirming care for teens absolutely cannot wait.
This is one of my greatest achievements. I have a legitimate urge to take a victory lap.
Marcos Dione@Impossible_PhD I'm a cis man so feel free to ignore this question. OTOH, I'm asking this question from the point of view of a parent that might need to face this in the future if their kids start feeling that way.
Would be an endgoal a society were we're not longer man and woman, but just people? Would also help if people would not care how other people dress?
Context: I'm trying to raise my kids so they don't think in terms of 'this is an activity for men, this other one for women'.
Jaddy@mdione @Impossible_PhD „No men and women“ no. „Less pressure from others“ yes. More self-determination. More options. Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“. It’s okay to stick to „traditional“ roles if that makes them happy - unless they press other to comply.
My main problem as a nonbinary person is, that others categorize me by sight and insist on their (binary) judgement, which is especially bad in german because of our totally binary gendered language.
Second problem, somewhat related: Too many places have two and only doors - real and metaphorical -, where a broader entrance made for all would be better for everyone.
So, let people find their gender (style). Find your own and enjoy the diversity. Don’t assume their gender (be neutral until they tell you) and don’t let them press you into their roles. Don’t build unnecessary categories and make rooms open, safe and suitable for all.
That would be my perfect (gender) world.
> "No men and women" no.
> Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“.
I would just leave it as "styles". I think that all the current clasifications (LGBTQ+ and, yes, C[is]) are still clasifications that not necesarily reflect every body.
I have a she friend. She had a boy friend. Then she dated some women and men, so she was bi. Then two guys, so bigamous. Now back to one guy, and now a kid. What is she? What was she?
@jaddy @Impossible_PhD Damn character limit.
To me, just a person, my friend.
I understand that this sounds like "all lives matter", but again, I'm talking about the utopia I want.
@mdione @jaddy no, it doesn't.
It sounds like a white person saying "I don't see color."
These facets of ourselves are central to who we are and our experience in the world. Many, probably the significant majority of us, find a LOT of joy and vibrancy in our identities. I *like* being a lesbian, beyond just liking women, and neither you nor anyone else gets to take that away from me.
Especially as a member of the dominant group, it's not okay for someone--you--to try to collapse those things.
@Impossible_PhD @jaddy that's exactly what I'm trying to understand. I hope nothing I say here is taken as an attempt to negate what you want to do with yourself, maybe it's because I've been 'formatted' in a culture that does not have other words for this.
On one side it looks like you want to have a label for yourself. Ok, yes, naming things make them exist... maybe I should go and read... philosophy? epistemology?
I'm not sure anymore. It would be an interesting chat over some beverage.
@mdione @jaddy in general, any attempt to collapse complexity of identity is just a veiled attempt to force minorities to conform to the dominant way of being, sometimes with small accommodations but often not even that.
Identities like trans or lesbian--these words with distinctions--are how we come to understand *our own experiences*. I didn't realize I was trans until I was 35 *because I thought people like me couldn't be trans*. It was only through expanding and exploring that identity--
@mdione @jaddy
--that I could recognize and embrace one of the most important parts of who I am.
So, yeah, when a cis, het guy talks about making that all go away? What I hear is a world where I would've been trapped in manhood forever, with no way out, because there weren't words for me to describe who I am. And saying "oh, we can just do/be whatever" is an absolute fairy tale in a world where prescribed gender is *everywhere*.
And even if it weren't, that's not a resonant experience for me.
> saying "oh, we can just do/be whatever" is an absolute fairy tale in a world where prescribed gender is *everywhere*.
Right, this is the crux of the thing with me. I try to live in the world I want, and I almost lost job opportunities because of that¹. Maybe I should try to hand down a watered down version of that.
¹ Just wearing sweatpants to an interview because they're warm and comfy in cold weather.
@Impossible_PhD @jaddy so an ideal world would be the freedom to try new experiences, and adopt (or not) things from them, without being judged?
It's interesting because I used to label myself as a geek and hacker, but now I feel like I outgrew those labels. True, cis mostly white but poor male¹, I had many advantages that you probably didn't.
¹ Part of the reason I want to outgrow labels comes from my origins. I was born in South America, but I have mostly European 1/2
... European blood, apparently with a touch of Black blood. I came to Europe as an immigrant and had to share our/their precarity until I obtained my Italian citizenship (via those European ancestors). Now I'm administratively treated differently and I kinda hate it, I'm the same person.
Also, while filling up form for US/UK border, what am I? Latino? White? I can't say Black, but c'mon!
@mdione @jaddy yes, and growing out of labels is a normal thing--as is growing into them.
Labels and identities, self-made, are ways of describing ways of being. To destroy the way of describing how you are a thing is to destroy your ability to be it at all. We cannot live a life we cannot imagine, and we cannot imagine a life we cannot describe.