kintherStarbucks accused of violating Americans with Disabilities Act by charging extra for non-dairy
Flying SquidThe plaintiffs say in the lawsuit that lactose intolerance is a disability listed under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the surcharges violate that act.
Is it though? I mean don’t get me wrong, it sucks that people who are lactose intolerant have to pay more, but is it really a disability?
FatAdamaEven if it isn’t, I’d prefer a world where people aren’t shitting their pants or leaving toxic fart clouds in their wake because they need to save .50 on a coffee.
Gluten free up charge is a thing everywhere and Starbucks is so overpriced that I go to a gas station for the occasional cup of to go coffee I get and there’s no real dairy anywhere there.
Snot FlickermanThe issue with the ADA is that it does not specify what counts as a disability, rather it gives an explanation of what is considered a disability. This leads to endless confusion and to court cases exactly like this, which are leveraging the text of the ADA as it stands to make their point.
The lawyer quoted in the article is correct, considering they already accommodate people with diabetes without surcharge, it can be argued the same courtesy needs to be extended to the lactose intolerant, who do not have a “choice” in whether they can consume dairy.
Because they cannot just consume dairy like other customers, the lawyer is arguing that no longer charging for the difference is a “reasonable accomodation” to the fact that their clients bodies cannot process dairy. That definitely rises to the same level of reasoning for those who suffer diabetes, in my opinion.
Anyway, that’s the frustrating thing about a lot of the ADA. It basically requires people who don’t know if their unique position qualifies them to spend a lot of money on lawyers up-front just to find out if the courts will actually accept that as true. It’s really well fucked because most disabled people don’t have money to be pissing away on such a legal project. Most of them are busy just trying to survive, especially if they’re living off of the meager money provided by SSI/SSDI. In other words, most of the time you have to hope a lawyer will take up your case pro-bono.
Source: My cancer isn’t cancery or debilitating enough to count as a disability.
This leads to endless confusion and to court cases exactly like this, which are leveraging the text of the ADA as it stands to make their point.
That’s how common-law systems are designed to work, though (along with delegation to regulators in the executive branch). You can’t really expect the legislature to think through every single nuance and corner-case a-priori, right?
Oh of course, but I was speaking of people who are seriously disabled (not just people with lactose intolerance) and that severely impacts their ability to just go out and get a lawyer to fight for their rights.
Like, the lactose intolerant, I’m pretty okay with them needing to come up with the money to prove it in court.
However, a lot of other people are stuck, shit out of luck, unable to work, hell, often unable to move, and they’re still fighting for their problems to be recognized as a disability.
The common-law system is fine and good, but we’re all aware of how it’s absolutely tilted in favor of people who have money and against those who don’t.
Yeah like if they had a mega list of every disability they could think of, but forgot one, or a new one is discovered, what happens in court? Said new/forgotten disability wouldn’t legally be a disability.
I got a disability lump sum for temporary disability due to a nerve disorder. It was based on my previous income and the percentage of time an expert judge I was able to work. (20% according to the expert.)
I only for $14,000 for 3 years of being disabled.
The disorder is now managed with medication, incidentally.
I’m lactose intolerant but even I think this is absurd. What about every other food allergy in existence? Should substitutions cost the same even if the ingredients don’t? Furthermore, we’re talking about a splurge item from a coffee shop. You can still make coffee at home or buy coffee without milk in it.
Oscar CunninghamWell the ADA only requires ‘reasonable’ accommodations. So I guess the logic of this case would be that if the substitution only costs a little bit more than the original ingredient then they should offer it at the same price. But this would still allow for business to charge extra when making the substitution would be ‘unreasonably’ expensive.
Therein lies the rub as what one person considers reasonable another might not. Charging 1:1 for the increased cost of almond or soy milk seems reasonable but charging an additional markup over what they set for dairy milk might not be.
If their case has merit, I hope they win, but I honestly wish these lawyer fees and court time could be better used to tackle more lucrative issues like suing Ticketmaster/Live Nation for their whole anti-consumer business model and price gouging or suing Comcast for their monopoly in my area. There are probably 1000 different places to buy coffee in my city but only one way to buy event tickets and one company offering broadband/high speed internet.
What’s absurd is that Almond, Soy, and Oat doesn’t cost more than dairy milk when you look at prices at a grocery. But Starbucks charges extra for it anyway.
halcyoncmdrI think a lot of people have no idea that many dairy alternatives are essentially the same price now. And that’s at a retail consumer level where the markups are biggest in the chain, bulk wholesale like what Starbucks pays would have an even smaller gap.
People are assuming there’s a massive difference in price, that just doesn’t really exist anymore… And that also ignores the absolutely MASSIVE markup Starbucks has for their coffee in the first place. It definitely doesn’t cost Starbucks $.50 to use Oat milk instead of regular milk, but that’s what they might charge the consumer for the substitution in a $6 coffee that cost them maybe $0.50 to make.
What’s absurd is thinking that this argument makes logical sense. Do you think Starbucks buys milk at the grocery store? What do you think the ratio of milk to each milk alternative is? 100:1? 1000:1? The scale at which the purchase each would greatly affect the price.
When I worked at a restaurant that used a lot of milk it came in a 3 or 5 gallon plastic sack that went into a dispensing machine. Milk alternatives are likely purchased by the case in consumer packaging. The cost is entirely different.
ChozoLactose intolerance is actually normal. It's tolerance to lactose as an adult that is biologically unusual, and mostly unique to westerners. Because most of us continue eating dairy products after infancy, we continue being able to digest them. However other cultures don't continue consuming dairy after infancy, and thus lose their ability to digest it effectively.
It's a really tough argument to claim it as a disability. I don't see this case going well for the plaintiffs.
So you’re saying that I am disabled because I can drink milk?
Oh and just to clarify I don’t drink milk that shit is disgusting, but I can.
Adult lactose digestion (called lactase persistence) is the result of a few different genetic mutations — one that happened in Europe, and several in Africa and the Middle East. It’s not caused in individuals by continued consumption.
That’s a super weird point of view. If your argument is wrt global averages and your view of normal is black hair, brown eyes, and some average between average Chinese and Indian populations, I suppose you’re right…but not in a way that’s remotely useful.
Aviandelight I am allergic to milk. If I ingest it I will die full stop. Food allergies should be considered as a disability in this case because if I wanted coffee with soy milk I shouldn’t be made to pay extra for something out of my control. That being said since my allergies are severe enough I don’t eat anything I don’t make myself so this wouldn’t impact me anyway but I agree with the principle of the case.
What if the dairy substitute was 10x the cost of real milk, I know it isn’t, but what if it were. Or even 100x, just for argument. Are you entitled to get that for the same price?
Lactose intolerance is the default for adults too. Them calling it a disability is wild.
Annoyed_🦀 Can’t access the site, but isn’t non-dairy milk often more expensive?
Prediction: Starbucks resolves the issue by raising all “milk” product prices to match the most expensive option.
And then they blame it on the lawsuit.
cygnusThis person capitalisms
Eww! No I don’t! Take it back!
Lol why wouldn’t they. I would.
If I had to change my burgers and fries prices at my burger joint so they are the same price as vegan burgers and non-peanut oil, I’d just raise the prices of everything to the new floor.
Because the reality people are shitty and they are going to claim the accommodation whether they have the “disability” or not.
Because of government subsidies, yes.
Nope, capitalism
State capitalism.
I don’t think that it is. At least the soy milk I sometimes drink is cheaper than the organic cows milk my wife drinks. Oat probably is more expensive.
Reminds of how back in the day, few places had veg options but would often have a bean version that was cheaper than the meat version cool. Now? Restaurants will have less bean options but have an Impossible meat option that’s more expensive than meat 🙄
ZorsithDairy is ludicrously subsidized, and as such cheaper than it really should be.
And that changes what?
To produce? No
As sold? Yes
Ooh ooh I know the answer to this one. Just make normal dairy drinkers pay 2 dollars extra that way no one is being discriminated against and the corporate coffers are set to be overflowing.
Whether or not lactose intolerance is a disability or not push back on this is pushback on all special orders getting a premium price across the board. No one with a disability should have to pay extra for standard access.
lol wut
Could someone with lactose intolerance not merely omit the milk?
strawberryI mean that limits you to just straight black. no latte, cappuccino, nothing
not against black coffee, but that's not why people go to starbies
I mean, this could apply very easily to a steakhouse too and vegetarians. Vegetarians would be limited to just salads and sides, but those aren’t why people go to a steakhouse.
That would be an actual reasonable accommodation in this case.
KokeshWhy not? I would charge more.
What about the extra charge for gluten free buns? Or vegan chese? Or impossible burgers? If I can’t ride my bike up big hills can i get an e-bike for the same price? If I’m very tall can i get an airplane seat upgrade for free?
gluten free buns
For people with gluten intolerance, they’d have a similar case. Lactose intolerance isn’t a choice just as much as gluten intolerance isn’t a choice.
Source: I’ve had a friend who has had celiac disease his whole life. I was jealous of him in high school because he was always so skinny, and I didn’t know he had it. Not fucking jealous anymore.
Yeah. I have a friend who can’t have onions, garlic, dairy, or gluten. At least dairy and gluten have decent subs now. Losing onion and garlic would be miserable!
If I can’t ride my bike up big hills can i get an e-bike for the same price?
If you have a disability you can get a mobility scooter
If I’m very tall can i get an airplane seat upgrade for free?
Neither the very tall (nor the obese for that matter) are part of a protected class, and their relative sizes are not considered disabilities. However those physical conditions can lead to disabilities (heart and joint issues for example) which then lead to reasonable accommodation.
Your straw men are cute, but this isn’t Kansas, we don’t need them here
Can you explain why the examples they gave are different than the case at hand? I think they have a point but I’m interested in hearing the opposing viewpoint (yours) before I form an opinion on the situation.
TBH, not much, except that in the case of dairy and gluten intolerance there’s a case to be made for reasonable accommodation under the ADA. The rest of his comments were increasingly silly
Also there’s many things wrong with American disability law, social safety nets, and the complete dysfunction of what passes for “healthcare”. Splitting hairs on what constitutes a disability is emblematic of these failings.
I was just 90 percent goofing and ‘what abouting.’ It’s only an issue because we have milk alternatives. Dairy bothers me but i don’t care for the alt milks so i mostly order tea. If i really want a coffee i get a small splash of milk and deal with the consequences. Also, there’s a whole thing with whether it’s milk sugar or milk fat or A1/A2 that bothers people - so sometimes skim milk or A2 milk is less upsetting and no more expensive.
Lol okay sorry if i came on too strong
Hmm with all due respect I’m leaning towards not liking this lawsuit. Similar to splitting hairs on what constitutes a disability, I think calling an allergy a disability cheapens the system.
I think what would be “most fair” in this scenario would be for healthcare to cover lactaid like it does with epipens, etc.
For the record, I am pro-ADA and pro-nationalised healthcare. I just feel like this lawsuit is frivilous
Appreciate the Kansas side burn
I have Celiac Disease and let me tell you, I would love to see gluten free items cost the same as regular foods.
The only thing you apparently can do is to include an itemized list of GF items you’ve bought over the year and include it in your tax return. However, the amount of bureaucracy is probably a great deterrent for people like me to not do this and just eat the extra cost.
Before everyone gets down on non-dairy milk drinkers, remember that the government subsidizes the hell out of dairy milk production to make it cheaper in the first place.
Yep. I would LOVE to be able to consume dairy without shitting my guts out, but as that’s not an option I get to either pay extra or go without.
ElderWendigoThey subsidize soy, oats, and almonds too.
Is that accurate?
I used to buy a lot of soy milk since I’m lactose intolerant and it was cheaper than milk a decade ago. But now it’s nearly the same price or double for the same brand. And now I’m wondering if it’s a Soy conspiracy.
It’s a capitalist conspiracy.
Most farming is subsidized, the debate then is which one is subsidized more. A bit of a specious argument at the end of the day.
Pretty easy answer, though, considering 2/3rds of crops are fed to cows and therefor the cost of creating dairy milk is much higher.
Soy is heavily subsidized. It’s the main crop in most Midwestern states, even more than corn.