CaractacusPottsIf Biden loses in November, don’t blame voters who are angry over Gaza | Arwa Mahdawi
LopensLeftArmI’ll blame each and every eligible person who didn’t show up to vote for him, regardless of what their excuse is. This isn’t the time to be playing around.
But you won’t blame the Biden administration for disregarding the wishes of their constituents?
The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, “Don’t permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant.” Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that’s not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
TropicalDingdongThe top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, “Don’t permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant.” Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that’s not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
Right now, today, supporting Biden any further is handing Trump a W.
Biden has lost the election at this point. It would be the biggest election upset of ALL TIME if he came back to win it. No incumbent this far down in the polling has EVER won an election.
If you truly want to stop Trump, stop brow beating people into supporting a lost cause and work to have a conversation around how we can get a better candidate. I think Shawn Fein.
BraveSirZaphodAnd Obama solidly lost his election against Romney if you looked at polls this far out. A strong case can be made that polls at this point are not predictive.
I think Shawn Fein.
Ignoring the fact that mine and most American's immediate reaction to this is "Who?", the fact that he has zero experience in elected office will be disqualifying to most people. He seems like a decent guy, and I'd love to see him in some sort of office some day, but this is not a serious suggestion.
Also, to quote him:
Proud to cast my vote for President @JoeBiden today, the first day of early in-person voting in the state of Michigan!
Oh god, finally gave a name. Who the hell is Shawn Fein? If I haven’t already heard of them, it’s a lost cause too - because they have no brand recognition. This is the dilemma and one I’ve been banging on about since before Obama. It’s kind of insane the Democratic party seems to hope for a repeat of that once in a lifetime basically out of nowhere candidate / win. For reasons I don’t get, Democrats are not building up people in advance to be candidates. So people have at least heard of them.
The problem is as far as I know there aren’t any well known middle aged democrats who could run that have any national stance. Schumer is also too old, Bernie is also too old, and then there’s the sexism that makes me question if Warren could run, and then there’s the racism that makes Kamala and Cortez pretty unlikely to get far either.
I thought the entire four years that Democrats needed to have someone in the news and convince Biden to back them a year ago. That didn’t happen. We already lost this years ago if Biden can’t win it. I’m just still amazed that there’s any support for Trump (well, ever, but certainly after the facts of his first term).
Point taken on Shawn Fein. He is the UAW president, and got Biden to come down to the picket line.
But overall, almost 100% agree. I don’t see any current Democrats with ‘enough’ of the right stuff to get handed the reigns and win. Its why I’m looking outside the party. I really think if Jon Stewart were to throw his hat in, he could win. He’s young enough, he doesn’t have the baggage that an existing candidate has, people know him, he’s a darling of the left. He’s been politically active although he hasn’t run (point against I supposed, but not a deal breaker. Didn’t stop Trump did it?).
Biden has blown this campaign with his position on Israel. He needs to drive voters out, and he’s pulling a classic Democrat move of just assuming that the support for him is there. The ship is sinking. This is a five-alarm fire moment. He has no opponents in this primary and is losing support. You don’t win elections like that.
If the liberals are going to keep insisting that we support Biden even though it becomes more and more clear as time goes on that he isn’t going to win, I don’t know where that leaves us. I don’t want to suffer through what Trump will do to this country. If Trump wins, I’d be shocked if we even have elections again. Expect every non-cis person in this country to be rounded up and executed. I don’t think its hyperbole to suggest that. I think the right would do that today if they had the power.
If Biden can’t beat a fascist demagogue and petty tyrant and Trump ends up winning, then I’d argue it’s your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump. The blame would fall squarely on your shoulders.
The blame will fall squarely on the voters who stood idly by navel-gazing while a fascist took power.
Oh, not the party loyalists like yourself who would rather back a losing candidate than allow a winner to run in their place?
Have you ever stopped to consider how someone could find a bloated, orange maniac more appealing than the guy you’re trying to shame everyone into voting for and what that says about your political views?
Which person, specifically, would be better to vote for than Biden that has a reasonable chance of winning?
Sanders would bring in the most, make him the nominee and you would keep the never trumpers, bring in some moderates, lose some moderates.
The math comes down to would the amount of moderates/independents you lose to apathy or trump, double points for the ones who would vote trump instead of sanders since the other team gains 1 and you lose 1, compared to how many moderates/independents and how many leftists you get.
I’d love to have Sanders, I voted for him last primary, and I’d vote for him again.
He’s not running. You don’t win with a candidate who’s not running for election.
Idk what to tell you friend, that sounds like something we have 9 months to fix.
At every opportunity Biden has had he has continued to support Israel’s genocidal actions.
He says differently, and god do I feel for people like blinken and the UN lady that has to be the face of support for things like that.
Maybe it is the rest of humanity that is wrong and we should be supporting the deaths of innocent brown kids.
It is the American way after all
No, it’s not. You don’t sub out a candidate with someone who, nine months before the election, has no interest in running for the office. That’s a pipe dream doing nothing but distracting you from the reality that it’s going to be Biden vs. Trump, and despite how imperfect you feel Biden is, you’re going to have to vote for him, because the alternative is fascist authoritarianism.
Whose vote is more important to you, the people who would disagree if Biden kept supporting Israel’s genocidal actions or the people who support them?
You only get to pick one group.
Absolutely irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Biden will be the nominee against Trump, regardless of what happens in Palestine. Doing anything besides voting for him is holding the door open for fascism to take over when Trump takes power.
You either do the bare minimum to stop Trump by voting for his only viable opponent, or you let him come to power with your blessing. Those are the only two options in November.
Friend I don’t care who the democratic nominee is, I went independent after Clinton 2
I might vote for Haley, I haven’t heard her calling for genocide on either side.
Besides she’s not Biden, not trump, and pissing off and trolling trump.
Last time I voted with my head I chose the wrong guy and he said yeehaw to killing him some brown folks
SaltySalamanderI’d argue it’s your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump
Who, exactly, is this mythical figure that could beat Trump at this point in the game? C'mon, give us a name.
Haley.
All you care about is beating trump right?
Sanders.
Once Biden steps down all the nevertrumpers will jump on board.
Or the Democratic establishment rigging a primary in 2020, and then forgoing one in 2024, to have one of the least democratic races of all time?
If this was an election in Turkey, the US would be imposing sanctions.
😈MedicPig🐷BabySaver😈Protecting the White House from Trump is more important than anything else going on in the World.
Do you (or anyone who thinks not voting for Biden is a smart thing) think that Trump would do anything differently? Because those are the two choices. If you don’t vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump by taking away votes from Biden… unless you live in a blue or red state where your vote doesn’t matter anyway.
I do blame Biden for how he is handling this situation. However, I am smart enough to understand that there is more than one situation that a president has to handle while in office. For the most part, Biden has honored the wishes of me as a constituent. If the only thing you care about in life is how the President of the US handles a conflict on the other side of the world, as opposed to the US economy, civil rights in the US, US Supreme Court justices, US circuit court judges, environmental policy in the US, etc., then that is your right as a voter. I hate what is going on over in Gaza (and the region in general), but I also care about is going on in the country I live in.
amniotic druidThe Democratic Party is well past due for a purging. If they won’t do it themselves, I honestly won’t be mad to see them face the MAGAts they helped raise. Trump is 80 years old and has had a lifetime of cheeseburgers and spray tans, in the worst case scenario, he’ll last five years and America would be better off in the long term for it.
If you really think the US would be better off in the long term if Trump gets elected, then you obviously haven’t paid attention to the very long term damage he did while in office. Trump 1 got to replace 3 justices. Biden has had the chance to replace 1. With looming retirements of a couple justices, Trump 2 would get to replace another 2. That would cement a 5 to 4 ultra-conservative Supreme Court for a good 20 years. Additionally, his tax cuts for the wealthy and refusal to raise interest rates weren’t exactly great for long term stability of our economy.
I agree with the D’s needing to have a wholesale change of leadership, though.
Comservativism is a race to the bottom; its a naturally implosive idealogy. Yes, America will be better off in the long term (read: more than five years) once the Dinocrats are put out to pasture and the MAGAts kill each other in a power vacuum after Trump kicks the bucket. America needs a revolution - any revolution - and the Dems are married to the status quo. I think most actual leftists in America are waking up to the idea that they are a dead-end for actual change and the only possible route for things to get better is by weathering a decade of Trumpism and building new from the damage that is promised to bring.
iAmTheTotIf you don’t vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump
I'm so tired of this rhetoric. Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them. Americans should not be strong armed into voting for a candidate they don't actually want.
If you are eligible to vote, and don't, that is the same as a vote for the winner - whoever that is.
No, it's not. For the record, I'm a huge advocate of voting. I think everyone should vote for the candidate they believe in.
If you're driving in a bus with 40 people voting on where to go, with 14 wanting to drive to a buffet, 16 wanting to drive off a cliff, and 15 saying that they don't care enough to vote but they don't really want to go to the buffet because they're not hungry, yes, I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.
And before anyone judges this analogy because one option is objectively good while the other is objectively bad: Everyone is guaranteed to get food poisoning at the buffet. Now both options are objectively bad, but I’m still judging the people who don’t care about going over the cliff.
You can criticize the fact that they didn't vote, I literally just said that I think everyone should vote. But that's not the same as saying they did vote for the winner. If you're mad that the bus is driven off a cliff, then be upset with the people that did vote for it.
This is excusing that I personally think your analogy is an oversimplification.
Both instances are willful action that contributes to direct harm to yourself and others.
No, in the context of a voting system, it is not literally a vote for the other option. I don't think your friends tumbling off the cliff will really care much about the distinction that serves no purpose other than personal moral satisfaction.
I trust my friends to distinguish between the people who voted for the cliff and those who, you know, didn't vote for that.
I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.
But you’ll happily sit on the bus, never questioning why you’re helping to maintain a system that results in such terrible options, and then blame others when that system you help to maintain comes back to bite you in the face.
talNah, only half as strong.
Candidate A and Candidate B.
Vote for A: Candidate A has 1 vote
Vote for B: Candidate B has 1 vote
Vote for neither: 0 vote for either. Midway between the two outcomes.
That being said, voting for neither doesn’t make much sense for anyone in terms of outcome. If you prefer one outcome, it doesn’t make much sense to only use half of the strength of your vote to support that outcome.
Not voting makes more sense if you’re making the argument that the time spent voting isn’t worth the return you get.
rudyharrelsonLet people vote for who they believe in without shaming them.
Voting is like freedom of speech. Everyone is free to vote for whoever they want, but they aren't immune from criticism for how they vote. If someone votes for a guy who says he'll "be a dictator on day one" and encourage Russia to "do whatever the hell they want", I'm gonna shame that person for supporting such an insupportable candidate who espouses such insane ideas.
To be clear, I was directly responding to someone who was claiming that not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I hate that rhetoric and it's not true. If you want to blame someone for Trump winning, you blame the people that voted for him.
Sure, but what I’d say is I’ll still say in this fricken 2 party system, you also have to justify not going for the lesser of two evils, however you define that. And if your position is “I want someone to stop Israel continuing their war on Hamas”, you also have to contend with the idea that neither option is likely to do what you want. This just reads to me like throwing a fit that mommy brought you peas instead of beans with your dinner and saying you want daddy, when he’s not bringing any food at all.
I don't have to justify not voting for the lesser evil when I can vote for an option that is, in my opinion of course, not evil at all. I encourage every American to vote, and vote for who you actually want to be the President, not just against who you don't want.
At first, I thought you weren’t American and weren’t aware of how the system works.
I’m not American, but I do know that if you live somewhere where your vote matters, you would improving Trump’s odds of winning.
If your riding already has a victor predetermined, then sure, vote for whomever you want. But if you’re in a swing state or anything like that, then not voting for Biden means helping Trump win.
You can hate how it works all you want, but it won’t change the reality of the situation.
then not voting for Biden means helping Trump win.
No, it doesn't, and loops right back around to the rhetoric that started my whole comment chain here.
A vote for Trump helps Trump win. If Trump got no votes, Trump would not win. The responsibility for electing Trump rests squarely on the shoulders of those who voted for Trump. No one else.
No, it doesn’t
Yes it does…
If Trump got no votes, Trump would not win.
Because this is impossible. The Republicans will always get some votes.
If only one Republican voted for Trump, and no Democrats bothered to vote, the Democrats helped Trump win by not voting.
If instead of 0 Democrats, 2 came out to vote and Biden won? Then all Republicans who didn’t vote helped Biden win.
If you have the opportunity to change the outcome, but you don’t take action to make the change, you’re responsible for your part in the result.
Sure, but you also said not to shame people for how they vote. I responded specifically to that statement and not the others because I understand wanting to vote for a candidate you actually want in office.
Unfortunately, strategic voting has to occur in order for things to get better in the USA. Until we massively overhaul the voting system, voters need to understand that you either vote for the lesser of two evils, or are (albeit passively) contributing to the greater of two evils' ascent to power.
Even far-left progressives like Bernie Sanders or Noam Chomsky were like, "Dude, you gotta vote for the Democratic candidate or else these crazy far-right candidates are gonna push the country further to the right. At least if the Democratic candidate wins we either stay where we are, or maybe get to move a bit further left during their tenure."
It's a deeply flawed system, but in the general election, it's a simple calculus. There's nothing Biden could do to lose my vote in November because I owe it to our society (and our allies worldwide) to prevent another Trump term.
I said that as a direct response to someone saying not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I wasn't trying to make some general statement. I don't know how else to say that.
If you want to judge a Trump voter for voting for Trump, judge them on that merit. Don't judge someone that didn't vote for Trump if Trump wins, that's bullshit.
Okay but we’re in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It’s either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.
Both of them support Israel, one with slowly(very slowly, yes) waning support and the other essentially saying he’d gladly help turn Palestine into rubble.
Domestically, Biden has been doing pretty good. The rail strike was a fiasco but besides that he’s mostly been a small step forward from Obama.
Meanwhile, Trump is Trump. His first term was a complete disaster for the country, and now he’s outright saying he’ll be a dictator rounding up the “enemy”, he’s saying he won’t defend our allies from Russia, he’s well and truly dementia-addled now(Mercedes? oof), etc…
Voting for Trump is far worse obviously, but not voting against him still makes it more likely he wins. Just as you have the freedom to make that decision, I have the freedom to judge the shit out of you for it.
Okay but we’re in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It’s either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.
Ever consider that we only get to choose between these two parties because people like you fear mongering and demanding everyone maintain the status quo?
If it’s guaranteed that Trump or Biden are winning then elections are obviously foregone conclusions, our votes don’t really matter, and neither party has any reason to ever change because they’re guaranteed to hold at least 50% of power at any given time. We might as well eliminate ballots and just automatically declare a winner based on party registration numbers.
If Biden is polling to lose and Trump ends up winning, you’re also supporting Trump by backing a losing candidate and handing the election over to Trump.
This is rhetoric from party loyalists who don’t give a shit about the country. It’s the Democratic version of MAGA, people who actively vote against their own best interests just to ‘stick it to the other guy,’ while the country crumbles and the rest of us suffer.
Flying SquidVersus someone who would be even worse for Palestinians and Americans? No, I won’t blame Biden if people let Trump in over the issue of Palestine. Because it means they were fast asleep between 2016 and 2020.
Thats what fucking matters. Do you want to fucking beat Trump or not? Whats your priority here? Running Biden or beating Trump? You have to pick one.
There is a genocide going on now not later. Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not. This isn’t a hypothetical. If Israel is allowed to continue, by April, there won’t be a Palestinian people in Gaza to consider. They’ll have been starved/ bombed to death, by Israel with the explicit support of Joe Biden.
Do you not fucking get it?
Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not.
So, are you claiming that if the United States stops sending some military aid to Israel, Netanyahu will be unable to continue military operations in Gaza? Because if so, you are sorely mistaken. Israel's military is perfectly self-sufficient, and if you think they particularly care about some UN resolutions, you need to talk to some Israelis.
American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome. Joe Biden could not unilaterally stop Israeli operations in Gaza unless he declared war on Israel and deployed troops, and I can assure you that isn't going to be happening. Not to mention, China, Russia, India, Europe, and all of South America also exist. Americans do not unilaterally decide everything that happens or doesn't happen in the world. We're not that important.
The United States was the sole veto of a ceasefire 20 days ago.
American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome.
If it wasn’t for US support of Israel, Israel would be north Egypt.
Considering how Egypt treats Palestinians, one would think that would be something you wouldn’t want.
It’s okay to oppress Palestinians as long as you don’t kill them? Apartheid is a good thing?
No recognition, no rights: Palestinians in Egypt
Palestinians in Egypt are neither recognised as refugees nor citizens, 75 years after the first refugees arrived after the Nakba, and Egypt's hostile treatment of its Palestinians today contrasts painfully with its warm welcome in the 1950s.
And you think that, if only the US hadn't vetoed it, Russia and China would have invaded Israel to stop it?
Do you realize that you’re arguing against yourself here? Claiming that “it wouldn’t make a difference whether the US supported Israel or not,” makes it look so much fucking worse that Biden is refusing to drop support for this genocide. This is incredibly tone deaf.
There’s another genocide going on now in the U.S. that people like you don’t seem to care about and which Trump will absolutely make far worse.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_genocide#United…
Because the genocide of queer people in the U.S. apparently is far less important and if Trump gets into office, has already planned and made clear that it will be far worse.
But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.
So we’re just completely changing the subject?
Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is “No”, the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He’s doing fucking horribly. He’s losing this election and we haven’t even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.
If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he’s not going to win in November.
Pointing out that you are ignoring a genocide in the U.S. that Trump and his people want to make worse is not changing the subject. It’s pointing out that you’re ignoring a genocide. Which you are.
But please tell me who I should vote for to stop that genocide. Give the name of the candidate that would get enough votes to beat Trump.
Because if you wanted someone other than Biden, you shouldn’t have waited until after the primaries started.
But go ahead- give me a name.