darkvq

If UBI (universal basic income) is ever implemented it will be used to control people.

https://lemmy.world/post/12512537

If UBI (universal basic income) is ever implemented it will be used to control people. - Lemmy.World

In every single article you read about UBI (universal basic income) you read about all the wonderful utopian possibilities. I have not seen one article mention what I believe will be the truth. The governments of the world will use it as a threat against behavior they want modified or won’t tolerate. If you get a few DUIs what happens? They take away your license because driving is a privilege. Well, imagine being poor and needing the monthly UBI money and the government tells you that if you do this specific act you will lose your UBI. It will be subtle at first and resemble some typical government hoop-jumping bureaucracy. Then a slippery slope of things you cannot do will slowly erode your rights. Did you attend a protest? In the U.S., the First Amendment grants you the right to do that but UBI is not a right it is a privilege so you lose your UBI. He who has the gold makes the rules.

Feb 28, 2024 at 12:37pmWeb
Show threadCandelestineFeb 28, 2024
That’s what the U part of UBI is for. Otherwise you just have a BI.
Show threadcrusa187Feb 28, 2024
Right. If it isn’t guaranteed, with no means testing, then it isn’t “Universal”
Show threadAshyFeb 28, 2024

Universal basic income (UBI) is a social welfare proposal in which all citizens of a given population regularly receive a minimum income in the form of an unconditional transfer payment, i.e., without a means test or need to work.

What you are describing are conditions so that would by definition not be UBI.

Universal basic income - Wikipedia

Show threadGiganFeb 28, 2024
A semantic argument isn’t going to stop an authoritarian goverment.
Show threadowenFeb 28, 2024
The idea is to implement it with inherent protections in place
Show threadTSG_Asmodeus (he, him)Feb 28, 2024
And how’s life without UBI in an authoritarian government?
Show thread4amFeb 28, 2024
We’re living it
Show threadKlearFeb 28, 2024
Are any such governments likely to implement UBI in the first place?
Show threadamniotic druidFeb 28, 2024
“Well you see, Mr. President, what you’ve actually created is simply just BI, or basic income, becaus- wait, who are these guys? Put your guns down. I take it back, I love Zionism”
Show threadfah_QFeb 28, 2024
How do you think this current system works lol.
Show threadRunwaylightsFeb 28, 2024

First of all, if you drink and drive you should lose your licence.

Second, this is one of the many reasons why it’s so important that we work hard to protect our democratic values and better the democratic systems that are already in place. Unfortunately an increasing number of people are willing to support leaders who aim to break down those democratic systems and enchroach civil rights.

In a well run democratic system (read: not USA) UBI can be a boon. It may be idealistic to a degree, but well worth striving for.

Show threadTSG_Asmodeus (he, him)Feb 28, 2024

100% agree with you. And I think the comment:

Well, imagine being poor and needing the monthly UBI money and the government tells you that if you do this specific act you will lose your UBI.

Misses the point. This literally already exists with Employment Insurance, Unemployment, etc.

If we’re in a democracy then yeah, governments can absolutely find ways to try to remove people from having it… But what’s worse: the vast majority of people having enough to scrape by, or the vast majority of people not having enough to scrape by?

Every single point against UBI already exists as a problem. Why not at least get the good parts.

Show threadpaddirnFeb 28, 2024

I could see it being realistically denied to convicted criminals (felonies), because the thinking will be, “If you’re a good citizen participating in society, then you’re entitled to UBI, but when you break that social contract, you lose that benefit”. And when you’re sent to jail/prison, the State becomes responsible for you anyways, so I’m sure the idea would be to just funnel your UBI towards your incarceration costs.

It being used against citizens for political reasons seems like something Republicans would do, so I think it would be necessary to build in protections to prevent UBI from being denied citizens.

Show threadmoodyFeb 28, 2024

Why would a felony conviction disqualify you? In many places, getting caught with weed would be enough to disqualify you.

Perhaps don’t give the money to people while they are in prison, since all of their needs should be fulfilled already. But disqualifying someone after their time is served defeats the purpose of UBI itself and of prison as a means of reform.

Show threadChuymattFeb 28, 2024
It would lead to increased recidivism.
Show threadsquid_slimeFeb 28, 2024

So what is it you are suggesting? People become homeless? Go hungry? Ubi is necessary for a society and it works in most country’s that have this kind of system in place.

Everything you said has been conjecture.

He who has the gold already has the gold… What difference will it make if it goes to people who need it.

Show threaddarkvqFeb 28, 2024

So what is it you are suggesting? People become homeless? Go hungry?

Why are people like this? I will never, ever understand people. Where in my premise did I ever state that I was anti-UBI or that I was suggesting an alternative? You immediately misinterpreted everything I wrote and started creating strawman arguments. The post is about UBI being corrupted by politicians. That’s all.

Everything you said has been conjecture.

Dude, what is the name of this community where this was posted? Did you know that conjecture is synonymous with opinion? And did you know that your opinions are also conjecture. What a ridiculous point you have attempted to make.

He who has the gold already has the gold… What difference will it make if it goes to people who need it.

You have no reading comprehension skills at all, right? The post (the opinion) is that UBI will be corrupted and those who need it will not get it unless they comply.

By the way, I am pro-UBI. I never stated that I was not.

Show threadsquid_slimeFeb 28, 2024

I found you opinion to be unpopular…
What more can I say

Opinion or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.

An opinion or conclusion based on guesswork.

“The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election.”

An opinion, or judgment, formed on defective or presumptive evidence; probable inference; surmise; guess; suspicion

My use of conjecture is fairly clear.

I have dyslexia so yes I do have issues with reading comprehension although its obvious you mean to insult my intellectual ability.

Show threadkimjongunderdogFeb 28, 2024
You're just describing the horrors of capitalism. The difference is that the guy with the gold under a system of UBI can be voted out if they don't follow the will of the people.
Show threadUziBobuziFeb 28, 2024
They already do all this with social safety net programs like Social Security and HUD/Section 8. Go to jail, lose your benefits. Every year is a ton of hoop jumping and massive stress while I recertify for my housing voucher and the measly $2 in food stamps they give my family per month. And that's without me even going to protests anymore.
Show threadEuphorazineFeb 28, 2024
The government right now encourages behavior it wants right now with tax breaks. They want you to have kids, child credit. They want you to open a factory, tax break on top of depreciation expenses.
Show threadBillDaCattFeb 28, 2024

The idea behind Universal Basic Income (UBI) is that everyone gets it. Rich, poor, and everyone in between. There is no criteria (other than maybe citizenship) that would prohibit getting the money. That helps to prevent what you are describing.

I'm sure someone will figure out a way to make it terrible in some way, but we have to implement it first and then deal with the hiccups.

Show threadSethayyFeb 28, 2024

Yeah but that wouldn’t be UBI cause then it wouldn’t be universal…

Any good idea can have a monkeys paw twist to it if you control the rules

Show threadBuglefingersFeb 28, 2024
I’ve always wondered this about UBI, so if anyone can please inform me that would be welcomed: If UBI is implemented, what stops companies, rent, etc. From using UBI income as a baseline to increase their costs due to the fact they know you always have certain minimum incomes? I feel like those cost increases completely negate any extra one would get from UBI
Show threadHubertManneFeb 28, 2024
my feeling is rather than making housing projects the government contracts with companies to provide a room, facilities, and a cafeteria somewhat like a college dorm if you had a single and that would be the amount of UBI. Folks can then sign up at one of those if they need to but they could also just get a roomate in a standard rental situation or whatever. Or they might make some money and afford something better. Keep in mind UBI is not just extra money all around. Someone like me who is doing alright would be paying as much in tax as I get back. But if I lose my job, or become disabled, or just need to retire. It would be there immediately. Obsiously folks like musk and bezos would pay way more in taxes than they would ever get back but they would still get it.
Show threadBuglefingersFeb 28, 2024

So in the end, it’s not about UBI at all, it’s about having social support programs that are not private companies/corporations funded by the government but supplied directly by the government? I.E. government housing paid by the “UBI tax system” that remains a stagnant amount based off the UBI number?

So UBI just amounts to more fair distribution of taxes and social support programs?

Show threadThermiteFeb 28, 2024

I agree with this thought. Same problem with welfare. You must work a certain number of hours to get it but not make over a certain amount. This allows Walmart to have a legion of no benefit having part time workers getting paid minimum wage. You keep those bad jobs because taking a better one means you lose welfare and all the additional government benefits.

This will be a revenue stream for capitalists. What you need to do is provide the basic needs and not cash. Food, healthcare and shelter. People now do not need to work and employers have to pay better to get people to work for them.

Show threadBuglefingersFeb 28, 2024
So UBI is really just a call for more social programs provided by the government (local or otherwise) not supplemented funding that goes to companies/corporations and is an inherent accessible resource with no prequalifications other than (in the USA for example) having an SSN?
Show threadHobbitFoot Feb 28, 2024
There would likely be some inflationary pressure, but it also allows for making some areas more economically viable.
Show threadBuglefingersFeb 28, 2024

I could see how lesser populated areas would become more viable since jobs can be distant, but everywhere else it would be effectively moot, yeah? For example, UBI of 1k for everyone, why would an apartment complex not just raise rent by 1k? The people could already afford what they were paying and now guaranteed have an extra 1k a month, so the price change is “net zero” to the consumer (in a twisted corporate view) and now rent is baseline 1k greater and the people gain nothing from this change in any reasonably populated area.

If this example is wrong in some way lemmy know!

Show thread4amFeb 28, 2024
It’s almost like capitalism is the problem 🤔
Show threadXeroxchasechaseFeb 28, 2024
Like everything, it’s a matter of public engagements. But UBI in itself is a good idea
Show threadMonsiuerPatEBrownFeb 28, 2024
So give up your driver’s license as a show of faith in your argument.
Show threadpostmateDumbassFeb 28, 2024
Sovereign Citizen tries to collect UBI in 3, 2, 1 …
Show threadHubertManneFeb 28, 2024
yeah to some degree. you would not get it if incarcerated or such but is it really more control than the economic system already inflicts on us? I don't think so.
Show threadlittleblue✨Feb 28, 2024
Are you familiar with currency? That’s one of the oldest control mechanisms humankind has ever invented… 🤪
Show threadpostmateDumbassFeb 28, 2024

You already cant use cash many places.

Putting people onto digital payments, credit cards, and digital currency will all acheive the same control.

Show threadzaphFeb 28, 2024
I’m not sure what’s stopping them from doing this now and how a ubi would make it any easier.
Show threadspujbFeb 28, 2024
OP when the straw man they built is flammable: 🤯😧😬
Show threadPerfideFeb 28, 2024
Universal