Lee DunaSignal and Threema want nothing to do with WhatsApp
no bananame neither
ApolloIt’s a good move; it shows they are no interested in popularity but Privacy and Security
driving_croonerI was hoping to move to signal in the whatapp network. Unfortunately in Brazil you cannot live without whatapp.
OtterYou could try and run both
Keep whatsapp, and slowly switch contacts to Signal (it might just be close friends and family). That’s what people around me are doing
My wife told me to fuck off when I install signal on her phone 😔
M500Haha, that’s kinda funny. Then people are like.
Just tell your friends and family to stop using iMessage. Like everyone will be ok to switch their routine just like that.
It’s definitely not for everyone. For me it’s
- some use signal with me / others exclusively, sending the occasional message elsewhere when on a certain device or sharing within a platform
- some use signal for sensitive conversations, and use other platforms most of the time
- some just don’t. If I need to have a sensitive conversation with them, I do it in person
Sounds like you need some matrix bridges in your life.
It’s on my list of things to explore soon 😄
Whatcha bridging to Matrix?
Honestly I started looking into a few of the easier ones and its a damn process so which one am I bridging? All of them. One at a time.
I managed to convince one long distance friend a few years ago. So now I need to keep Signal just to be able to communicate with him.
KevnyonIt’s not about converting people close to you. In some situations, you’re asking them to install an app just to talk to you, while everyone else they talk to is on WhatsApp. I personally have to use WhatsApp for work and for personal, otherwise I’d literally not get those messages. There’s no option when, if you stop a random person on the street, regardless of what OS their phone is running, and ask to look at their phone, it’s going to have WhatsApp installed. It’s like your phone having email; who the fuck doesn’t have email? It’s the same with Whatsapp, it’s just assumed you have it.
I have both WhatsApp and Signal installed.
In the 3 years or so since I installed Signal, I haven’t had a single conversation on it. Only a handful of people from my Contact book are showing as Signal users, and none of them people I speak to regularly.
I live in anticipation of someone deciding to message me on there, but I’m not exactly optimistic at this point.
I met one person a few months ago who also used signal primarily. It did feel weird adding someone normally. Usually when I add someone it’s their first time with signal
FoxBJKMeta wants to federate with the whole fediverse eventually. This is first up, then Threads. Remains to be seen if they’ll bother with a Lemmy instance but I wouldn’t be shocked.
So far though the response by the fediverse has been “nah”.
It’s… I guess the ghost of their XMPP abandonment.
☂️-EEE at its finest, like they did to XMPP
uisWasn’t it google?
Both Google and Facebook.
On the one hand I agree with them sticking to their guns.
On the other, the number of contacts I have using signal has dropped off a cliff, from 12 to just one. It certainly isn’t rising. The people I know who used it have abandoned it and went back to WhatsApp.
Getting rid of SMS support was a mistake.
I’d personally prefer that when messaging with someone using WhatsApp, they make clear to you that Facebook can and will have some metadata, but not the contents of the chat itself.
IMO a good but imperfect solution is preferable to nobody using Signal.
I’d personally prefer that when messaging with someone using WhatsApp, they make clear to you that Facebook can and will have some metadata, but not the contents of the chat itself.
If you believe that, then I think you’re one of Zuckerberg’s proverbial “dumb fucks”. Not that I mean to be insulting, but that’s literally what he thinks of his users.
Facebook’s WhatsApp is almost certainly filled with backdoors and exploits. In particular, with Android they often bypass Play Store checks by bundling system apps directly via the manufacturer.
they make clear to you that Facebook can and will have some metadata, but not the contents of the chat itself.
You thought you’re safe and private when the content is encrypted? LOL, no. Metadata are much more useful to Facebook, and to the intelligence services.
“We Kill People Based on Metadata.” – Former Director of NSA and CIA, General Michael Hayden
My point isn’t that metadata isn’t useful for them, there’s no need to be condescending about things I never said.
My point is metadata should be proected as content does. While IM platform needs to know which message should be delived to whom, they don’t need that after being delivered.
I would state it even more generally, something like “when chatting with WhatsApp/Facebook Messenger users Signal can only ensure no data is shared with third parties from your device …” or something around the lines of that
I disagree. When sending SMS you are leaking info like when, to whom and how big message you sent to a lot of spying agencies.
dblsaikoYou do that regardless of which app you use to send SMS.
That’s why I don’t use SMS at all
Cool, but that’s not an argument against SMS support in Signal.
kevincoxPerfect is the enemy of good
This is exactly the problem. If they support interoperability then they will allow their users to continue using the Signal app which has high security standards, even if the particular conversation is not as secure as native signal conversations and they can’t control what the third-party app does. This will help grow the Signal network (because now it is easier for WhatsApp users to incrementally switch to Signal) and become more secure.
By rejecting interoperability they may be slightly improving the privacy of the 1% of users where their conversation partner would have switched to Signal, but are harming privacy the 99% of users that will now need to switch to WhatsApp for those converstions and are harming their future network growth (which would bring even more users to a private solution).
Infiltrated_ad8271This is what I hate most about the privacy community, too fanatical and purist to allow extremely useful optional features that would allow them to reach more people.
I use Signal whenever I can because I’m not comfortable with Meta harvesting metadata of my conversations with people. guess what happens if Signal made it possible to talk to Whatsapp accounts?
You could go on without doing it. I would like to use signal to signal, but there are literally zero people interested in my environment :-(
Using signal just me would be much better than using whatsapp directly, and would reduce the data collected.
If signal suddenly stopped being mostly a geek desert and people could still talk to all their contacts, don't you think they would be much more willing to move? The more people, the more people interested in migrating, and the less data for meta.
don’t you think they would be much more willing to move?
no, why would they, if they could talk to Signal anyway?
If the user base is signal's big draw, I'm afraid we're screwed with such a tiny one against those titans.
Signal users are far more likely to need to use whatsapp than the other way around, and migrating to signal is a huge loss with not very popular gains. I don't see how it could compete on a level playing field, but that's where the opportunity to eliminate signal's huge disadvantage comes in.
If it’s an optional feature why are you complaining that the other businesses are refusing their option to federate with Facebook?
The issue is simple: Facebook will work to leech users away from other services, strengthening their position into a monopoly (if it isn’t already in some places). It is not a good thing for Facebook to get access to more users and steal their data.
WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted. How does all the data magically show up when you change phone which doesn’t have the same private key as the old phone? It’s like having a lock on your front door and giving the keys to a random neighbour. Most folks trade convenience for privacy or security. That trade is looking less and less appealing by the day.
Ehm, they don’t show up magically.
You have to backup directly to your new phone, otherwise it won’t get transfered.
I just did this, and I can 100% confirm that not backuped data won’t go to the new phone.
Also when logging in on the website version on pc, you need to keep whatsapp open on your phone to sync old messages and media to your pc if you want to be able to see them there.
killeronthecornerWhich is also exactly how Signal works too; I migrated both two days ago. Process was virtually identical.
I much prefer Signal, but can’t judge WhatsApp to harshly on this tbh.
It better be the same because WhatsApp uses the Signal encryption protocol!
NicoCharruaDoesn’t necessarily have to be the same. Afaik the signal protocol is for sending messages, not for transferring backups of chats.
Whatsapp actually lets you back up all your chats, unencrypted, to Google Drive or iCloud. Definitely not the same as Signal.
Thanks. I stand corrected. I was one of those that paid $1 for life when WhatsApp was a new kid on there block but haven’t used it since news broke that Facebook acquired them like a decade ago. At the time, you had a new phone, your messages would transfer. Dunno how it is today after all those years but seems to be similar to Signal.
Based on the stories coming up on Facebook and their lack of moral / humane boundaries I still won’t trust them not to have access to a private key when their app is so invasive. Their whole model is based on behind the curtain trafficking.
If you get a new phone and don’t import anything from your existing phone, then messages you receive will be unable to be decrypted. Since WhatsApp uses the Signal encryption protocol, it’s fairly detailed how receiving a message which can’t be decrypted can start an initialization to the sender to retry sending the messages: signal.org/docs/specifications/sesame/#retry-requ…
The signal app will prompt you when a contact’s public key is updated, but IIRC, by default Whatsapp will not do this, and it will automatically happen under the hood, which is why it appears like magic.
Thanks. Haven’t used them in like a decade so things seem to have changed. At the time, new phone meant your messages transferred automatically.
At the same time, even if Facebook requires a backup for the messages to show up, as the app is close sourced, how would one know for sure whether the app doesn’t harvest the private key anyway?
Sounds like you used Whatsapp pre Signal which happened in 2016: signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/
With regard to private key, for backups, this relies on the HSM in Apple and Android devices, so the private key is engineered to never be accessible by Facebook. Here’s how they say they use the HSM to encrypt the backups: engineering.fb.com/2021/…/whatsapp-e2ee-backups/
There’s no way to be 100% certain, but if Whatsapp were found to have access to the private keys, it would be huge damaging news, so why would they risk it? Security researchers can watch the traffic going to/from the app and the OS APIs being called, and can see the HSM being invoked. Despite it being closed source, that doesn’t mean it’s less secure and there’s no one verifying the security claims.
WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete
At Open Whisper Systems, our goal is to make private communication simple. A year ago, we announced a partnership with WhatsApp and committed to integrating the Signal Protocol into their product, moving towards full end-to-end encryption for all of their users by default. Over the past year, we...
Thanks for explaining. It’s interesting and outside metadata there could be a case for data being secure. However, this is the same company that lied and got fined in the EU when they asserted that they wouldn’t be able to link WhatsApp and Facebook identities. This allowed the merger to happen. Security and privacy being something that the average Joe doesn’t care that much, it wouldn’t be too much of a negative impact when they already have so much bad press on other matters. Finally, from an ethical perspective, I’ll give this corp a miss. Values don’t really align with my personal ones even if privacy and security were beyond reproach.
THE MASTERMINDThreema seems to solve a problem signal has that is it does’nt need a phone number to open account . But i haven’t used any of them so can’t say . (If anyone wanna know i use telgram foss which is a debloated fork of the original client)
Doesn’t signal now have username support? I thought i saw it released a week or so ago.
It still needs a phone number for registration. You just don't need to share it with people you want to talk with.
That doesn’t solve the issue that you have to give them a phone number to start an acc.
That’s not really a problem. The biggest problem Signal has is people not caring about privacy enough to use another messaging app.
If Signal dropped the phone number requirement they’d get a handful more users. If people started to care about privacy they’d get millions of new users.
MubelotixExtremely bad take in my opinion. Not supporting alternatives means you force users into installing the alternatives
Nope. Fuck people stupid enough to use FBInc at all.
Using whatsapp is an absolute necessity in most of the world, its the only way to communicate with coworkers, classmates, businesses and even some government services. Not using it means you are essentially disconnected from the world. Good luck convincing more than 2 close friends to install Signal just to talk with you. No one uses SMS. FB really is that dominant.
Doesn’t give any reason to swallow that kind of sucker punch.
It’s OK to be “disconnected.”
Especially if “connected” implies dependency on one corporation which has shown general disregard for its customers’ privacy and mental health.
I don’t use Whatsapp, FB, Instagram, snapchat, google, and somehow manage to make my way through the world.
Believe it or not plenty of people still interact in meatspace, limited as it is.
If you don’t live in a place with WhatsApp as the dominant chat app I don’t think you could get it. I don’t have FB, Instagram, Snapchat, Google, Outlook, or any form of social media, I am as disconnected as can be. But WA is truly inescapable.
Need to ask a very specific question about taxes? The government support person only answers through WhatsApp. Need to file an insurance report and even check if it was approved? WhatsApp. Need to schedule a certification exam? Whatsapp. Hell, more and more companies and government services are moving to WA only customer service/support, like not even help you if you show up in person and in some cases their phone lines (which are “always busy”) just direct you to their WhatsApp.
Its also the only way of reaching coworkers/classmates. Not for like socializing or messing around, but for group work, file sharing, scheduling meetings, sharing important/urgent announcements, etc. And good luck getting mere acquaintances to install a secondary chat app just to talk to you, when we can barely get our friends to install adblockers in their browsers. Well, there are other secondary ways to reach them, Facebook Messenger and Instagram DMs, but we both likely agree on what to make of these ones.
I hate Facebook and am aware of their practices, but they have reached an absolute dominance over communication in most of the world. You can’t just ignore them in day to day life.
The people who say “just don’t use WhatsApp” really don’t understand. They may as well be saying “just don’t use email”
For millions, possibly billions of people, it’s a straight-up requirement for partaking in modern society.