some_guyKenneth Smith ‘struggled for life’ for 22 minutes in Alabama nitrogen gas execution: Updates
Cruelty is the point in America.
2edgy4me
KokeshSeriously, fuck USA.
Youre just jealous pal. You wish you could be an American. /s
Ok, I do. The idea that I can endure something like this is the bollocks. And also you can meet people that can’t read. What a greatness!
Weird, everything I saw on Lemmy until yesterday was about how humane and painless this method is, without any suffering. Seems that the tone has changed
Isn’t it the same way they let sick people kill themselves? I remember seeing a recent story about someone using a new capsule. They get inside it; it fills with nitrogen; and they drift away.
I’m no fan of the death penalty. Just genuinely interested in whether I’m correctly remembering that the best known voluntary method matches the new execution method.
Apparently they thought they could skimp on the capsule and just use a mask. Cheap and evil.
Method is important. The medium is the same (nitrogen) But putting an “oxygen” mask on someone and plumbing it to nitrogen is a different method than putting someone in a chamber that is sealed and the oxygen and exhaled carbon dioxide* are quickly displaced.
*Carbon dioxide is what makes you feel like you’re suffocating.
The key difference is that you need something to be actively removing the CO2, not just replacing the O2 with nitrogen.
Suffocation, as in the choking and suffering, is caused by carbon dioxide buildup, not lack of oxygen.
In humane suicide or confined space accidents, there’s no oxygen but you can freely get rid of CO2. It’s why workers test before going into sewer pipes and wear safety harnesses and sensors, and setup ventilation hoses. Without them they wouldn’t even notice they were dying until they got loopy and fell over.
snooggumsSick people want to die and will breathe normally, which is what makes it painless. Resisting causes the suffering.
NeatoYeah. Turns out they shouldn’t have used an untested execution method. Especially when the judge made a blatantly unconstitutional decision to kill a man anyways. Clearly Alabama has no problem testing on humans.
m-p{3}It’s a well-tested method, they botched the methodology.
The process - which is only authorised by Alabama, Oklahoma and Mississippi - involves breathing in nitrogen through a respirator mask placed over the inmate’s nose and mouth, which kills them as a result of oxygen deprivation.
Well shit, they should have at least used a full face covering or a hood at minimum.
Where does it say in that article that it’s well-tested or that they botched it?
Where does it say in that article that it’s well-tested
Dr Nitschke was called to testify by lawyers representing Smith and claims he has seen around 50 people die by nitrogen hypoxia.
Considering he’s an expert on the matter, I’d he would have said if these past events went poorly.
or that they botched it?
He said that when he examined the chamber Smith’s execution will be carried out in and the mask that will be used, he became ‘anxious’ as he could not promise the death row inmate that everything would go as planned.
originaluciferas with anything, it can be fucked up... and leave it to this backwoods state to fuck it up.
The nitrogen assisted suicide used a different delivery method. The mistake was using a mask for the execution.
Fat TonySo then what do you use?
Many commenters here have addressed it - use an airtight chamber or pod, and flood it with nitrogen to evacuate other gases. The problem was likely that the inmate was able to breathe in some oxygen through gaps around the mask.
It’s humane when done properly, this one sounds botched. Which was probably the point, given that cruelty is part of the death sentence system.
If the person is aware it is happening it can't be humane because they can hold their breath and will still get the effects of suffocation. Plus the whole awareness of being killed.
Oxygen deprivation won't kill you fast enough to not notice what is going on if you know it is going to happen.
That’s the point of using nitrogen though. If you replace all the breathable air around a person, they’re not going to notice anything is wrong. The pain and distress mostly comes from suffocation and suffocation comes from excess CO2 in the lungs and body. If there is no gaseous exchange in the lungs, there will be no suffocation, you just pass out and eventually die of hypoxia.
Nitrogen is used in Switzerland for assisted suicide, you go in a sealed pod, and at the press of a button all air is replaced by nitrogen and you die.
Nitrogen is used in Switzerland for assisted suicide, you go in a sealed pod, and at the press of a button all air is replaced by nitrogen and you die.
If the person knows they are in a chamber to be put to death and they want to live then they will know something is wrong and will try to hold their breath.
Mask or room are not stressful if the person does want to die or doesn't know what is going on. You have to breathe willingly for the process to work without stress.
FaceDeerSo don't let them know the exact moment that the nitrogen is coming.
Look, I hate the death penalty and I think it should never be used. But if it's going to be done and there's no way I can stop that, I can at least recognize that there are ways it could be done that are relatively humane. Nitrogen gas asphyxiation is relatively humane, but as always with the caveat that you don't hopelessly botch the attempt.
These Alabama yahoos seem to be fundamentally incapable of not botching their execution attempts.
Executions have specific steps that include setting a time and place that cannot be bypassed for surprise. Don't forget that it is a common practice for a person of faith to be present, and it isn't like you can spring something on them too and there is no reason that they would need to keep the surprise a secret.
How about we just stop killing people? He was in jail for decades already, what did making him suffer a terrible death accomplish?
Executions have specific steps that include setting a time and place that cannot be bypassed for surprise.
So change that step. Why is that particular step impossible to alter? You're making up rules specifically to make the execution more traumatic.
How about we just stop killing people?
That would of course be the ideal outcome. But the problem is that many jurisdictions, such as Alabama, are insistent on it. So if they're going to do it and we can't stop them from doing it, why not at least try to get them to do it in a humane manner?
All of my advice to Alamaba would be prefaced with "you shouldn't kill this guy at all, but if I can't stop you, then you should at least..." And nitrogen gas asphyxiation is definitely near the top of my "you should at least..." suggestions. As long as you do it right. The victim having sufficient forewarning to hold his breath is doing it wrong.
So change that step. Why is that particular step impossible to alter?
First off, the date and time of the execution is scheduled ahead of time. A random time to execute is even more cruel than a set time because it means the person is just waiting for something to happen. It also fucks with any kind of support for the person dying and any tracking of the steps taken to ensure it is done properly.
You're making up rules specifically to make the execution more traumatic.
No, you are suggesting making changes that would be impossible or at least harder to implement than just not executing people.
A real solution would be to administer an injection that knocks him out and then turn on the nitrogen so he would be asleep when it started. But that requires a trained medical professional, and if that was a possibility they wouldn't have fucked up trying to kill him with lethal injection in 2022.
Stop buying the state propaganda to justify executions when they keep fucking it up. You are the one promoting suffering.
I'm not talking about randomizing the date. I'm talking about randomizing the exact second when the switch is thrown. Executions aren't timed to the second. And even if they were, change that. Again, there isn't some kind of immutable law of physics at work here. The rules are all made up. If the goal is to execute someone humanely and the rules are preventing that, then change the rules.
Did you know, for example, that in Japan a prisoner who has been sentenced to death will only be informed that "today's the day" on the morning of the day the execution is to take place? And that his family and the general public aren't informed until after it has been done? As I said, these things are not laws of physics.
No, you are suggesting making changes that would be impossible or at least harder to implement than just not executing people.
Really. You think it's hard to not tell a guy when you're about to turn a valve?
A real solution would be to administer an injection that knocks him out
You know what also "knocks him out"? Anoxia.
Also, the whole reason this mess happened in the first place is because Alabama previously spent five hours trying and failing to give this guy a lethal injection. Your idea of being more humane is to go back to the method that they even more flagrantly and horrifyingly botched in the first place.
Stop buying the state propaganda to justify executions
When have I ever said that an execution was justified? Go ahead and comb through my comment history on this subject, it feels like every second comment of mine has included the disclaimer that I disapprove of the death penalty and don't think it should ever be applied.
The point of this argument is to advocate for the most humane approach if you're going to execute someone anyway. If I can't stop it, then I at least want it to be done humanely.
There's a saying that I wish was more common, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." The perfect solution to all this would be to never execute anyone. But that's apparently not going to happen in the near future, certainly not in Alabama, and so we're left hoping for the "good" outcome rather than the "perfect" one.
You are the one promoting suffering.
Exactly 100% not true.
Not enough attention was paid to the delivery mechanism and most of the attention was on Nitrogen gas in the abstract. The lawsuit was a total scattershot approach of throwing everything at the wall in order to delay or prevent this execution. It made it too easy to focus on the things that were absolutely wrong and not examine the delivery mechanism more closely.
And I’ll own my part in that - the articles being posted contained a lot of bad science that stood to be corrected. The fact that the mechanism for delivery was a tiny mouth & nose mask that didn’t dilute or remove the CO2 wasn’t explained - probably because of the clear lack of understanding of how Nitrogen asphyxiation works.
Like, I might argue cottage cheese is safe and humane to feed someone, but when you fire a tub of it out of a cannon into someone’s face, I will concede there are ways to do it inhumanely if you are sufficiently stupid or determined, but that shouldn’t detract from the argument.
Nitrogen asphyxiation in and of itself is a humane way to go and should be preserved as an option while capital punishment remains. However, it must be performed correctly.
I’m still here saying that. Alabama fucked up something that should’ve been dead simple. Sealed mask with a one way valve, hooked directly up to nitrogen. That or an anoxic chamber for the victim. I’m against capital punishment but if it’s going to happen, nitrogen is still the way to go.
PhiloHe was unconscious and not experiencing any form of pain that he was aware of. Therefore his death was PAINLESS.
Read the article:
"We didn’t see somebody go unconscious in 30 seconds,” said Red Hood. “What we saw was minutes of someone struggling for their life.”
You have absolutely no evidence that this is true, you’re just parroting after-the-fact propaganda while entirely ignoring the good science on offer in this thread.
Those boots must be real tasty, huh?
Which boots?
The bootlickers are the ones supporting the death penalty without the lack of suffering.
Seriously whose boots are getting locked here?
I think their point is you’re buying a version of events that very much goes against reality as they slowly suffocated for 20+ minutes.
A little bit different than bootlicking don’t you think?
Bootlicking is giving in to authority without question.
No one here has any authority
Ignoring science? Nope. If They implemented it correctly there would have not even been a struggle nor a groan as the oxygen would have been replaced by nitrogen in the blood and death would have been without a whimper. As it was even without the correct implementation since it seems the nitrogen was mixed with some oxygen or unconsciousness would have been within seconds, he was aware of no pain at the time of death as he was unconscious. Unless you are trying to claim that he was supernaturally aware of pain through some other means than his consciousness.
“If”
That is the science in this thread, if you could be arsed to read and comprehend it. But you’d rather waste your time with nonsense so whatever.
Right, but they clearly didn’t as they suffocated over 20+ minutes.
I’m not sure what your point is.
Therefore his death was PAINLESS.
Except for the 22 minutes of struggling to breath. Unless you’re discounting those by saying he was unconscious the moments before his death. If that’s the case, most forms of what we consider painful death are after at least a few moments of unconsciousness.
I’m curious how they implemented this. The air completely has to be replaced with nitrogen, no breathing in a mix of nitrogen and outside air, no oxygen at all. People that enter confined spaces with no oxygen pretty much just drop and are dead quickly, so this doesn’t sound like they did it right.
RiccosuaveThey used a mask rather than the more appropriate method which would be to use a sealed chamber that was forcefully evacuated of oxygen and replaced by nitrogen the way the suicide pods are supposed to function.
The problem with a mask is it can’t be a perfectly sealed system. The issue with the execution from a logistical standpoint was the redneck engineering they employed and not the actual science behind nitrogen hypoxia.
Please don’t come at me, I’m not making a value judgment about the use of the death penalty, I’m just explaining the issue with their shoddy ass methodology.
Edit: accidentally a word.
Edit #2 (YouTube Link): Here is some additional information about why a gas mask is an ineffective and dangerous way to conduct an execution via nitrogen hypoxia from Dr. Philip Nitschke, a leading advocate of the right to die movement and an expert in the field of voluntary euthanasia. He personally examined the execution method being used in Alabama, and told them he felt it would be ineffective for many of the same reasons stated above.
Euthanasia Doc Warned Against Gas Mask in Kenneth Eugene Smith's Execution | TMZ Live
FTR I’m generally against the death penalty, so same, don’t give me grief. I’m of the opinion that if it’s gonna be done, don’t fuck it up.
Ok. So regarding the implementation it sounds like they fucked it up. As you said (and I previously implied) it sounds like they didn’t properly exclude oxygen/remove waste CO2. Kinda hard to believe they fucked up something so simple considering the ton of evidence on hypoxic accidents.
Precisely. They apparently either felt it was fine to cut corners, do not fully understand how nitrogen hypoxia actually works, or a little bit of suffering was intentionally part of the process because it still is Alabama after all…
TalaraineWas gonna say, in Alabama you could give them a step by step guide and they'd take shortcuts.
Sir_KevinYou’re assuming they could read the steps in the first place.
That guide better include pictures!
The big, really big issue, and I hate to say it. Is that, depending on the jurisdiction and laws in place, executions cannot be done by professionals. Most of the people who would know how to do it properly, medics, nurses, engineers, are ethically banned from participating or facilitating executions. Not that this stops them all from participating, and in some contexts some do, but on the general, executions on the USA are performed by completely incompetent individuals.
The more reason to just not fucking do them in the first place. How did they botched it using a mask when almost every single expert on medically assisted dead recommends at least a sealed hood.
Very good point.
The people with the most experience with nitrogen suffocation are scientists working with animals. It’s the current best ethical euthanasia method.
little bit of suffering was intentionally part of the process
Of course it was. They also didn’t want to use nitrogen, as there is no awareness at all if done correctly. The drugs they use with lethal injection likely induce panic and pain because they do not induce unconsciousness before it.
Executions have never been intended to be humane. They are punishment, vindication for the wronged. A childish obsession with a horrible misunderstanding of justice.
The exit bag uses nitrogen suffocation as a suicide method. It’s a bag that encloses the person’s head. If they felt a mask could have been used, they would have
I’m willing to bet my left testicle they thought in their lead-addled brain that it would work like a diver’s mask. Pumping in gas pushes out the water, so it must also push out the air, I tell you hwat! I don’t consider myself to be a very bright person, but even I know that water and air work differently.
GladiusBHot take, they don’t care because they are killing someone. The humanity part of it is completely removed. They care that they did the deed and it didn’t work. It should have been immediate. Someone should be losing their job. An Internet search could have prevented this.
Plus it’s Alabama. The cruelty has always been the point for as long as they have been a state
Surely they ought to care simply because if they continue to fuck it up they will lose public support for executions?
Well you and I would think that is obvious. I am not so sure what they are thinking.
their shotty ass methodology.
In case you didn’t know, that should be “shoddy” as in “made or done poorly”
Yes, that is what I was going for, thank you. I have now corrected my shoddy spelling 🙃😉
I think the bigger issue is that he was aware of when the nitrogen started, so tried holding his breath for as long as possible.
If he had the mask on and it was pumping breathable air, and then at some point switched to pure nitrogen without any warning that would be more humane because he wouldn’t know what was happening or when.