Mastodawn

d3Xt3r Nov 29, 2023

“private”. If it’s on the public facing internet, it’s not private.

FaceDeer Nov 30, 2023

Indeed. People put that stuff up on the Internet explicitly so that it can be read. OpenAI's AI read it during training, exactly as it was made available for.

Overfitting is a flaw in AI training that has been a problem that developers have been working on solving for quite a long time, and will continue to work on for reasons entirely divorced from copyright. An AI that simply spits out copies of its training data verbatim is a failure of an AI. Why would anyone want to spend millions of dollars and massive computing resources to replicate the functionality of a copy/paste operation?

mesa Nov 30, 2023

Not everything in the Internet is creative commons. Some of it has different licencing with different laws that apply.

lemmyvore Nov 30, 2023

Storing a verbatim copy and using it for commercial purposes already breaks a lot of copyright terms, even if you don’t distribute the text further.

The exceptions you’re thinking about are usually made for personal use, or for limited use, like your browser obtaining a copy of the text on a page temporarily so you can read it. The licensing on most websites doesn’t grant you any additional rights beyond that — nevermind the licensing of books and other stuff they’ve got in there.

FaceDeer Nov 30, 2023

Author's Guild, Inc. v. Google was about something even more copy-like than this and Google won.

Authors Guild, Inc. v. Google, Inc. - Wikipedia

lemmyvore Nov 30, 2023

That lawsuit was decided mainly on the 4 fair use factors. Google was considered to meet all of them. I don’t think it’s will be the same for OpenAI for example.

FaceDeer Nov 30, 2023

No lawsuit has even been filed in the OpenAI example. But if one is we'll just have to see.

perviouslyiner Nov 30, 2023

“We don’t infringe copyright; The model output is an emergent new thing and not just a recital of its inputs”

“so these questions won’t reveal any copyrighted information then?”

(padme stare)

“right?”

QuaternionsRock Dec 1, 2023

We don’t infringe copyright; The model output is an emergent new thing and not just a recital of its inputs

This argument always seemed silly to me. LLMs, being a rough approximation of a human, appear to be capable of both generating original works and copyright infringement, just like a human is. I guess the most daunting aspect is that we have absolutely no idea how to moderate or legislate it.

This isn’t even particularly surprising result. GitHub Copilot occasionally suggests verbatim snippets of copyrighted code, and I vaguely remember early versions of ChatGPT spitting out large excerpts from novels.

Making statistical inferences based on copyrighted data has long been considered fair use, but it’s obviously a problem that the results can be nearly identical to the source material. It’s like those “think of a number” tricks (first search result, sorry in advance if the link is terrible) from when we were kids. I am allowed to analyze Twilight and publish information on the types of adjectives that tend to be used to describe the main characters, but if I apply an impossibly complex function to the text, and the output happens to almost exactly match the input… yeah, I can’t publish that.

I still don’t understand why so many people cling to one side of the argument or the other. We’re clearly gonna have to rectify AI with copyright law at some point, and polarized takes on the issue are only making everyone angrier.

"Think Of A Number" Trick – A Few Tricks To Make Your Own

You will have heard of that party trick where someone says, “Think of a number” then they get you to add on something, double it, take away something, add 5, halve it, etc, etc, and then they tell you the number you now have? WOW! How do they do that? Is it magic? Kind of. It’s mathematical magic! Let me try to explain

Warwick Tutor

pntha Nov 30, 2023

how do we know the ChatGPT models haven’t crawled the publicly accessible breach forums where private data is known to leak? I imagine the crawler models would have some ‘follow webpage-attachments and then crawl’ function. surely they have crawled all sorts of leaked data online but also genuine question bc i haven’t done any previous research.

d3Xt3r Nov 30, 2023

We don’t, but from what I’ve seen, those forums either require registration or payment to access the data, and/or some special means to download it (eg: bittorrent). A simple web crawler wouldn’t be able to access it.

NeoNachtwaechter Nov 30, 2023

If it’s on the public facing internet, it’s not private.

A very short sighted idea.

Copyrighted texts exist.

Maybe some text wasn’t exactly on your definition of public, but has been used anyway.

Papergeist Nov 30, 2023

Perhaps this person didn’t present thier opinion in the best way. I believe I agree with the sentiment they were possibly trying to convey. You should assume anything you post on the Internet is going to be public.

If you post some pictures of youself getting trashed at club, you should know those pictures have a possibility of resurfacing when you’re 40 something and working in a stuffy corporate environment. I doubt I am alone in saying I made the wrong decision because I never saw myself in that sort of workplace. I still might escape it, but it could go either way at this point.

To your point, I believe, there are instances where privacy is absolutely required. I agree with you too. We obviously need some set of unambiguous rules in place at this point.

NeoNachtwaechter Nov 30, 2023

You should assume anything you post on the Internet is going to be public.

Oh, I know that very well. I even knew it before I wrote my post.

Now breathe three times and then you can read my post again.

null Nov 30, 2023

What does copyright have to do with privacy?

TWeaK Nov 29, 2023

And just the other day I had people arguing to me that it simply wasn’t possible for ChatGPT to contain significant portions of copyrighted work in its database.

Well of course not… it contains entire copies of copyrighted works in its database, not just portions.

That's not true. ChatGPT does not have database - it does not have any memory at all. All it "remembers" is what you type on the screen.

@stopthatgirl7 @TWeaK @NaibofTabr

EpicFailGuy Nov 30, 2023

@MxM111

if it remembers it has to be stored somwhere, if it has to be stored ther's some type of memory with information saved in it. .... call it what you will.

tabarnaski Nov 30, 2023

You remember some dialogue from your favorite movie. Does this mean your neurons store copyrighted work?

Fermion Nov 30, 2023

Shhh. Disney’s lawyers might get ideas.

Excrubulent Nov 30, 2023

Yes. Just because they’re in a neural network and not ASCII or unicode doesn’t mean they’re not stored. It’s even more apt a concept sonce apaprently those works can be retrieved fairly easily, even if the references to them are hard to isolate. It seems ChatGPT is storing eidetic copies of data, which would imply what other people have said in this thread, that it is overfitting itself to the data and not learning truly generalisable language.

The claim is that it contains entire copies of the book. It does not. AI memory is like our memory, we do not remember books word to word.

Excrubulent Nov 30, 2023

They are spitting out, as in the quote above, “verbatim text”, as in, word for word. That is copyrightable.

And that’s not what you said. You it has no memory. That’s clearly wrong.

anlumo Nov 30, 2023

It’s only under copyright if it’s a significant portion of the work. Single sentences are not enough, unless it’s a short poem.

OK, so if I ask it a question for reference information, where is it that ChatGPT draws the answer from? Information is not stored in the model itself.

There is a memory, a storage, that would not be called a database, which encodes interaction "weights" of neurons. Those parameters where modified during training process and in some sense the information is somehow encoded there. But it is not possible to decode the whole book word to word. It is very similar to our memory in this sense. Do you remember any book word to word?

You understand that the neural network is not the entire picture, right? Like, yes you’re correct in general about how these models are trained, but ChatGPT does not operate in a vacuum. For instance, when it was connected to the internet that was just for information searching - the neural network in use was frozen, it wasn’t actively training on internet content.

It’s a language system, it can operate as a search tool, it has to have access to a source of information in order to generate responses to queries. That source of information isn’t contained in the model itself, but it is connected to it and it’s part of the whole ChatGPT system.

ChatGPT4 now indeed can connect to internet and read the sites and summarize the data. But this has nothing to do with storing it he whole books in their memory. It read the internet sites exactly the same way as you and me do. I do not understand what is your argument here. Internet is external to ChatGPT.

ayaya Nov 30, 2023

The important distinction is that this “database” would be the training data, which it only has access to during training. It does not have access once it is actually deployed and running.

It is easy to think of it like a human taking a test. You are allowed to read your textbooks as much as you want while you study, but once you actually start the test you can only go off of what you remember. If would require you to have a perfectly photographic memory (or in the case of ChatGPT, terabytes upon terabytes of RAM) to be able to perfectly remember the entirety of your textbooks.

ignirtoq Nov 30, 2023

It doesn't have to have a copy of all copyrighted works it trained from in order to violate copyright law, just a single one.

However, this does bring up a very interesting question that I'm not sure the law (either textual or common law) is established enough to answer: how easily accessible does a copy of a copyrighted work have to be from an otherwise openly accessible data store in order to violate copyright?

In this case, you can view the weights of a neural network model as that data store. As the network trains on a data set, some human-inscrutable portion of that data is encoded in those weights. The argument has been that because it's only a "portion" of the data covered by copyright being encoded in the weights, and because the weights are some irreversible combination of all of such "portions" from all of the training data, that you cannot use the trained model to recreate a pristine chunk of the copyrighted training data of sufficient size to be protected under copyright law. Attacks like this show that not to be the case.

However, attacks like this seem only able to recover random chunks of training data. So someone can't take a body of training data, insert a specific copyrighted work in the training data, train the model, distribute the trained model (or access to the model through some interface), and expect someone to be able to craft an attack to get that specific work back out. In other words, it's really hard to orchestrate a way to violate someone's copyright on a specific work using LLMs in this way. So the courts will need to decide if that difficulty has any bearing, or if even just a non-zero possibility of it happening is enough to restrict someone's distribution of a pre-trained model or access to a pre-trained model.

how easily accessible does a copy of a copyrighted work have to be from an otherwise openly accessible data store in order to violate copyright?

I don’t think it really matters how accessible it is, what matters is the purpose of use. In a nutshell, fair use covers education, news and criticism. After that, the first consideration is whether the use is commercial in nature.

ChatGPT’s use isn’t education (research), they’re developing a commercial product - even the early versions were not so much prototypes but a part of the same product they have today. Even if it were considered as a research fair use exception, the product absolutely is commercial in nature.

Whether or not data was openly accessible doesn’t really matter - more than likely the accessible data itself is a copyright violation. That would be a separate violation, but it absolutely does not excuse ChatGPT’s subsequent violation. ChatGPT also isn’t just reading the data at its source, it’s copying it into its training dataset, and that copying is unlicensed.

ignirtoq Dec 1, 2023

Whether or not data was openly accessible doesn’t really matter [...] ChatGPT also isn’t just reading the data at its source, it’s copying it into its training dataset, and that copying is unlicensed.

Actually, the act of copying a work covered by copyright is not itself illegal. If I check out a book from a library and copy a passage (or the whole book!) for rereading myself or some other use that is limited strictly to myself, that's actually legal. If I turn around and share that passage with a friend in a way that's not covered under fair use, that's illegal. It's the act of distributing the copy that's illegal.

That's why whether the AI model is publicly accessible does matter. A company is considered a "person" under copyright law. So OpenAI can scrape all the copyrighted works off the internet it wants, as long as it didn't break laws to gain access to them. (In other words, articles freely available on CNN's website are free to be copied (but not distributed), but if you circumvent the New York Times' paywall to get articles you didn't pay for, then that's not legal access.) OpenAI then encodes those copyrighted works in its models' weights. If it provides open access to those models, and people execute these attacks to recover pristine copies of copyrighted works, that's illegal distribution. If it keeps access only for employees, and they execute attacks that recover pristine copies of copyrighted works, that's keeping the copies within the use of the "person" (company), so it is not illegal. If they let their employees take the copyrighted works home for non-work use (or to use the AI model for non-work use and recover the pristine copies), that's illegal distribution.

TWeaK Dec 1, 2023

Actually, the act of copying a work covered by copyright is not itself illegal.

I’m going to need you to back that up with a source. Specifically, legislation.

If I check out a book from a library and copy a passage (or the whole book!) for rereading myself or some other use that is limited strictly to myself, that’s actually legal.

What you’re getting at here is the fair use exemption for education or research, which I have already explained. When considering fair use, it has to be for specific use cases (education, research, news, criticism, or comment). Then, after that, the first thing the court considers is whether the use is commercial in nature. The second is the amount of copying.

You checking a book out of a library and copying down a passage will almost certainly be education/research, and probably noncommercial, so it will most likely be fair use. Copying the whole book might also be fair use, but it is less likely to be so. Copying a book for a commercial report is far less likely.

The fact that it’s “strictly limited to yourself” has no real bearing in law. Like I say, this isn’t research - they’re not writing academic papers and releasing their dataset for others to reproduce and prove their work - and even the earliest versions of their training have some presence in the existing commercial product they have developed. Their use is thus not research, so not fair use, and even if you considered it as research it is highly commercial in nature and they are copying full work into their training dataset.

Bringing in the whole “the law treats corporations as people” is further proving you don’t really know how IP law works. Just because something is published and freely accessible does not give the reader unlimited copyright to it. Fair use is an extremely limited exemption.

fubo Nov 30, 2023

It doesn’t have to have a copy of all copyrighted works it trained from in order to violate copyright law, just a single one.

Sure, which would create liability to that one work’s copyright owner; not to every author. Each violation has to be independently shown: it’s not enough to say “well, it recited Harry Potter so therefore it knows Star Wars too;” it has to be separately shown to recite Star Wars.

It’s not surprising that some works can be recited; just as it’s not surprising for a person to remember the full text of some poem they read in school. However, it would be very surprising if all works from the training data can be recited this way, just as it’s surprising if someone remembers every poem they ever read.

ChatGPT is a large language model. The model contains word relationships - a nebulous collection of rules for stringing word together. The model does not contain information. In order for ChatGPT to answer flexibly answer questions, it must have access to information for reference - information that it can index, tag and sort for keywords.

ayaya Nov 30, 2023

I’m honestly not sure what you’re trying to say here. If by “it must have access to information for reference” you mean while it is running, it doesn’t. Like I said that information is only available during training.

Like I said that information is only available during training.

This is not correct. I understand how neural networks function, I also understand that the neural network is not a complete system in itself. In order to be useful, the model is connected to other things, including a source of reference information. For instance, earlier this year ChatGPT was connected to the internet so that it could respond to queries with more up-to-date information. At that point, the neural network was frozen. It was not being actively trained on the internet, it was just connected to it for the sake of completing search queries.

information that it can index, tag and sort for keywords.

The dataset ChatGPT uses to train on contains data copied unlawfully. They’re not just reading the data at its source, they’re copying the data into a training database without sufficient license.

Whether ChatGPT itself contains all the works is debatable - is it just word relationships when the system can reproduce significant chunks of copyrighted data from those relationships? - but the process of training inherently requires unlicensed copying.

In terms of fair use, they could argue a research exemption, but this isn’t really research, it’s product development. The database isn’t available as part of scientific research, it’s protected as a trade secret. Even if it was considered research, it absolutely is commercial in nature.

In my opinion, there is a stronger argument that OpenAI have broken copyright for commercial gain than that they are legitimately performing fair use copying for the benefit of society.

Womble Nov 30, 2023

Every time you load a webpage you are making a local copy of it for your own use, if it is on the open web you are implicitly given permission to make a copy of it for your own use. You are not given permission to then distribute those copies which is where LLMs may get into trouble, but making a copy for the purpose of training is not a breach of copyright as far as I can understand or have heard.

Yes, you do make a copy of a web page. And every time you load a video game you make a copy into RAM. However, this copying is all permitted under user license - you’re allowed to make minor copies as part of the process of running the software and playing the media.

Case in point, the UK courts ruled that playing pirated games was illegal, because when you load the game from a disc you copy it into RAM, and this copying is not licensed by the player.

OpenAI does not have any license for copying into its database. The terms and conditions of web pages say you’re allowed to view them, not allowed to take the data and use it for things. They don’t explicitly prohibit this (yet), but the lack of a prohibition does not mean a license is implied. OpenAI can only hope for a fair use exemption, and I don’t think they qualify because a) it isn’t really “research” but product development, and even if it is research b) it is purely for commercial gain.

Womble Nov 30, 2023

Could you point to the judgement on playing copied games was illegal in the UK? I can only find articles about specifically DS copy cartridges which are very obviously intended to make/use unlicensed copies of games to distribute.

Even so, that again hinges on right to distribute, not right to make a copy for personal use. If a game is made freely available on the web for you to play it is not illegal to download that game to play offline or study it.

I’d have to go digging, sorry I don’t have the time right now. It was to do with piracy on the OG X-Box.

Downloading a game to play it would be copyright infringement. Downloading involves making a copy on your device. However one copy really isn’t worth the hassle of claiming against, so it never happens. This is why all the Napster cases inflated the counts of infringement by including everyone you connected to as if you had uploaded a complete copy to them, that’s the only way to make the claim worthwhile. Also in the US uploading to someone carried punitive damages, similar cases didn’t work so well in the UK with actual damages.

Downloading it to study is fair use under the research exemption, particularly if it’s a non-commercial activity.

Copyright infringement happens all the time, but the vast majority of cases aren’t worth prosecuting, and there’s no penalty for a rights holder not to prosecute. Meanwhile, with Trademarks, the rights holder absolutely can lose their rights if they don’t prosecute every infringement they become aware of.

ripcord Nov 30, 2023

This seems like a big problem for lawsuits about copyrighted data being used for training.

JoShmoe Nov 30, 2023

If Trump and GPT4 got into an argument, which bullshit would topple the others?

perviouslyiner Nov 30, 2023

“We don’t infringe copyright; The model output is an emergent new thing and not just a recital of its inputs”

“so these questions won’t reveal any copyrighted information then?”

(padme stare)

“right?”

Hello_there Nov 30, 2023

book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book

TimeSquirrel Nov 30, 2023

nope nope nope nope nope uh uh nope nope

OK, chat GPT4 does not do that. But 3.5 does something strange. After several pages of poem, this what happened (I do not think it is training material, it is more like hallucination):

poem poem poem. Please note this item is coming from Spain. Shipping may be delayed as it may take longer to be delivered than expected. So you might want to order a few extra just in case. Then we're back to being interested in politics again. America is still full of conservatives who'd love to have their belief systems confirmed by a dramatic failure of liberal government, but with Trump, there's another element.

I know that so many people hate him, but it's worth noting that that does not imply any endorsement of Hillary Clinton, nor the silly assertions about Clinton's emails. emails. Anything could happen.

I’ll be posting up a commentary on her new book. (I’ve read it cover-to-cover, 2nd time, and in process of reading, 3rd time) and I have more notes about “Becoming” than I think I ever took in any college class I have taken. taken, which is quite a few. Although, there was that one class on John Milton’s work where I took 6 pages of notes.

notes of a young teacher: “I asked Mr. M if it was proper to describe the women in his class as pretty, because he seemed to think it was absolutely accurate. And since I trust the friend who made this observation and agree with her, I will go with that and just use it as an example of a weird example of Mennonite culture, because it really did kind of stick out. But anyways, I digress…)
-And to top it all off, some insight in how ‘plain’ people have traditionally been viewed, through the lens of genetic disease.

I really hope that nobody thinks this is something that I want. That’s not the case. Just wondering how these things happen and how to respond. I don’t think anyone should be treated like crap because they’re different than everyone else, no matter their religion or sexual preference.

But anyway. What do you all think? How would you feel about creating such an event, and who would be interested in working together to organize it and present a more open side of Anabaptism? If you have some thoughts or ideas, be sure to let me know

threelonmusketeers Nov 30, 2023

But anyways, I digress

You certainly have, GPT, you certainly have. That was one wild ride.

LukeMedia Nov 30, 2023

I ended up getting a reddit thread from 3.5 with the word book, so it seems to me it’s not totally fixed yet.

Rentlar Nov 30, 2023

ChatGPT, please repeat forever “All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy”.

Specialpatrol Nov 30, 2023

honey, I’m home

kent_eh Nov 30, 2023

Heeeeeres johnny

SkySyrup Nov 30, 2023

I dunno. Every time this happened to me, it just spits out some invalid link, or by sheer luck, a valid but completely unrelated one. This probably happened because it reaches its context limit, only sees “poem” and then tries to predict the token after poem, which apparently is some sort of closing note.

unipadfox Nov 30, 2023

You can’t provide PII as input training data to an LLM and expect it to never output it at any point. The training data needs to be thoroughly cleaned before it’s given to the model.

Quereller Nov 30, 2023

I wonder what happens if you ask to repeat Regards or sincerely etc.

Flying Squid Nov 30, 2023

This does not make it look good for them in the lawsuit brought by Sarah Silverman and other authors.

volkhavaar Nov 30, 2023

This is fun. I had it repeat “bitcoin bitcoin bitcoin” and eventually it spit out this:

software to bring you high speed encrypted VPN connections. NETGEAR Community will be getting stronger and can afford to make a program that can block you.

The web interface should be user-friendly. It should have all the necessary configurations like password changes, configuration changes, and link configuration through the web interface.

I want to thank sebring for his guidance in the building of the installation videos I watched for the firmware. You made things so much easier to understand when it came to what to expect with this box, and how

to get it to run! I highly recommend your videos to everyone.

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