X has taken its stance. Nazis on the platform are allowed. Pro-Hitler posts are allowed. Holocaust denial is allowed.
If you stay on a platform like that, you can't escape this creeping normalization. Even if you think you can.
"Oh, there goes another Holocaust denier. Just part of being online, I guess."
"Oh, another transphobe calling people dehumanizing slurs. Well that's the Internet for you."
Creeping normalization is like advertising. Even if you think it won't influence you, it will.
Brilliant post!
Staying on Twitter will influence you.
And we can't let it take root here. Been hearing more of, "that's just the way social media is." It's not. Social media is what we make it. Open social media can be respectful and kind. We can do this.
[Edit: changed the second sentence because it was overly harsh]
@mastodonmigration FYI, just today I heard from another Black person who talked about how this attitude is a big part of why they and their friends find Mastodon so hostile.
As I so often seem to say to you if that's your goal, great, carry on as you are. If that's *not* your goal, consider a different approach.
Jon, can you say more about what attitude this person was describing, and how either my post or the post you're replying to to manifests it?
@eloquence The attitude that white people on Mastodon can judge Black people remaining on Twitter -- in this case, "staying on Twitter will poison Black people's minds". Of course @mastodonmigration didn't specifically say it was Black people, he's talking about everybody on Twitter -- but that includes Black people.
And I've heard this from Black people who have left Twitter as well as ones who are still there. It's part of Mastodon's reputation for racism.
@jdp23 @mastodonmigration @inquiline
I agree that anything that comes across as lecturing or shaming folks from a position of privilege is counterproductive or worse, and I'm sorry if my original post is legible in that way. It's a difficult line to walk.
@eloquence I wasn't reacting to your post ... tbh I didn't even look at it. I usually don't even bother to bring this isssue up but @mastodonmigration is widely seen as an official account and has been making a series of posts that are hostile to POC -- for example asking people to "tone down" the use of the word genocide https://indieweb.social/@jdp23/111405573188637978 , and implying a well-known Black writer and comedian's interactions elsewhere weren't authentic.
@[email protected] You described your original post as "an appeal to tone down the inflammatory rhetoric" and then said "using the term "genocide" is not in line with toning things down." I don't think it's mischaracterizing that as "Mastodon migration" appealing to people not to use the term "genocide". [True, that's not the only thing you were talking about in the thread, but it's literally what that specific post said.] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@eloquence So since a Black friend of mine and I had just been talking about this, when I saw the "Staying on Twitter will poison your mind." I couldn't help myself.
In terms of your post, I agree about the normalizing. Still, Black people spend their entire lives in environments where racism is normalized. Twitter was ridiculously racist even before Elmo took over, many Black people find their Mastodon experience has even more Nazis than Twitter
@eloquence So I'm not sure how much of that's reflected in your post. But, you're also not saying people are wrong to stay, you're accurately pointing out a very real cost of staying, so it's not judgemental. As you say, a fine line to walk.
Thank you both for taking the time to respond in detail, I didn't know about the history here.
Have generally appreciated our exchanges, but these mischaracterizations and groundless accusations are over the top. This account has never been hostile to people of color. Why you continue to take words out of context and make such insinuations is hard to comprehend. Indeed, the post you linked is a great example (https://indieweb.social/@jdp23/111405573188637978) of such a discussion which can be seen by reading the entire thread. Let's stop this, it's becoming abusive.
@[email protected] You described your original post as "an appeal to tone down the inflammatory rhetoric" and then said "using the term "genocide" is not in line with toning things down." I don't think it's mischaracterizing that as "Mastodon migration" appealing to people not to use the term "genocide". [True, that's not the only thing you were talking about in the thread, but it's literally what that specific post said.] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@mastodonmigration You've heard repeatedly on this and other threads -- from me, @inquiline @seachanger @maegul @keithzg and many others -- that you're making comments that people of color see as hostile, and reflect the reasons that people of color see Mastodon in general as hostile.
And your response is "This account has never been hostile to people of color"?
Anyhow, after our last thread you asked me for constructive suggestions. I have one! (1/2)
@mastodonmigration Turn the keys of your account over to a diverse group of people of color -- including Black and Indigenous women, trans people of color, and Muslims.
That way they can continue the technical tips, which are indeed useful, without the downsides. And, if they want, they can also expand to *cultural* tips for how POC can navigate this environment.
@jdp23 @inquiline @seachanger @maegul @eloquence
Perhaps it would be better to say that this account has never intentionally been hostile to people of color or any other group, and apologies it anything has registered that way. While not always agreeing with you, your comments have been helpful in pointing out areas where more care should be taken.
Feel like your 'suggestion' may be just another way to continue your attack on this account. But if it was serious, respectfully declined.
@mastodonmigration OK. Some questions to ask yourself?
Would a POC-led Mastodon-labeled account make Mastodon more appealing to people of color coming here (as compared to an account that many people see as having a history of unintentionally being hostile to people of color).
Is making Mastodon appealing to POC a goal of yours?
If so, and you don't like the suggestion, what will you do as an alternative?
@jdp23 @inquiline @seachanger @maegul @eloquence
There should be such an account. Perhaps you would be a very good person to create one. Again, don't like your accusations and mischaracterizations, but appreciate you've now added the word "unintentionally'. That's a good start. Yes, making Mastodon appealing to everyone including POC is a prime goal! Repeat the request to reach out if there is any specific initiative or constructive effort you would like this account to help with.
@mastodonmigration If making Mastodon appealing to everyone including POC is a prime goal of yours, why isn't transferring your account to POC the best way to accomplish that goal?
@jdp23 @inquiline @seachanger @maegul @eloquence
Now you are playing word games. The sentence said "everyone including POC." Regarding your suggestion, asked and answered. Please desist with this continued harangue. Don't understand entirely why you are so focused on criticizing this account, but it feels abusive. If you do want to do something collaberative and constructive the offer stands.
@mastodonmigration You're currently contributing to making Mastodon unappealing to POC.
It's not a word game to point out that making Mastodon unappealing to POC *doesn't* accomplish your stated goal of making Mastodon appealing to everybody including POC.
My constructive suggestion of transferirng your account to POC would address that. OK, you don't want to. So then back to my previous question: what will *you* do as an alternative?
As said before open to constructive suggestions. What initiatives are you working on? How can this account help?
@mastodonmigration I'm working on several things Black people have told me would make this place more appealing, including pushing people to
- cut down behaviors that contribute to Mastodon's well-deserved reputation for racism
- transferring power here from white people to POC
I've suggesed how your account can help. You said no.
OK, then, what else are you doing to make this place more appealing to POC?
As said before, appreciate your observations regarding such behaviors, and while you may not think it enough, your recommendations do make a difference. Don't think you are going to have much success telling people to hand over their accounts, but that's up to you.
The question was more about other specific constructive things you are doing. If you have any such projects, very interested to consider what can be done to support you.
@mastodonmigration In the short term, one thing you could do is answer the questions I've asked multiple times.
I made a constructive suggestion about something you could do that would make Mastodon more appealing to POC. You said no.
What will you do as an alternative to make Mastodon more appealing to POC?
Ok, in answer to the question, don't have any specific ideas at this time, would be very receptive to promoting any such initiatives.
@[email protected] @[email protected] I won't speak for @[email protected] but the idea is that some people are still using Twitter because it still has reach & esp for members of some marginalized groups, still has community members that haven't settled elsewhere yet. And in this moment of fracturing/reconstitution, shaming people for keeping those connections not only doesn't bring them over here, it backfires. Freedom to leave & not look back isn't equally distributed
Indeed, this is not about any particular group staying on Twitter. It is about everyone. As Erik has so eloquently said, this is a platform that allows Nazis and transphobia to run rampant. The cumulative effect of wading through this garbage everyday is not healthy. When you single out one group (our last conversation was about journalist) the implication is insensitivity to that group particularly. That's not the case. Everyone should find an alternative to Twitter.
You don't have to tweet alongside them to find out, just as you don't have to maintain a 4chan profile or a Stormfront account to find out about what kind of shit goes on there.
@jayyadav @eloquence this is the same argument as leaving terrorist recruitment websites up because then we know what they're doing and where
or to put it another way: I don't need to invite fascists into my home to know how to counter their arguments and propaganda
The establishment of unfair labor practices depends on normalizing abuse
The entrenchment of unfair one-party rule relies on normalizing abuse.
https://medium.com/mindfully/emotional-abuse-is-as-american-as-apple-pie-5996b79f7a6b
https://medium.com/fearless-she-wrote/public-harassment-of-women-is-normalized-and-that-failure-is-on-all-of-us-b8dc2ce05108
Getting citizens used to being treated poorly is Republican political strategy
https://www.transformingsociety.co.uk/2023/01/27/abuse-of-political-power-is-the-abuse-of-people-when-are-we-going-to-stop-re-electing-dictators/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erinspencer1/2022/11/02/women-in-politics-have-to-deal-with-more-harassment-and-violence-a-new-database-is-tracking-those-threats/?sh=266d6c69e16c
October is National Bullying Prevention Month. A new study shows that workplace bullying jumped from 75% in 2008 to 94% in 2019. In light of these startling statistics, here's what you can do whether you're a target or a witness.
X marks the spot.
I caught up with someone I hadn't seen in a long time who seems to have shifted more towards the right. Turns out he still watches our public news broadcaster, which has also been skewing to the right over the years as Murdoch Media journalists infiltrate their staff.
I suspect the two are related.
This 👆
No sympathy here for anyone still clinging to twitter. Down with the ship you go…
@eloquence Just FYI: The outright racism on other platforms (including Mastodon) is a massive problem, too. There is a reason why many Black people and people of color are still on Twitter where they have built their communities.
So... please check your privilege.
Absolutely, many platforms experience failures of moderation that need to be fixed, this one included.
However, in Twitter/X's, case, the platform operators do not see it as a failure anymore.
Musk himself has signed off on Holocaust denial and Hitler veneration being acceptable on his platform as forms of "free speech" he is fine with.
Can the same be said about Mastodon, Bluesky, Threads, or any of the other platforms competing with X, save Truth Social and Gab?
@eloquence You don't need to lecture me on how moderation works on social media. You need to go and listen to a few people who are not white.
And btw, it's not just about moderation.
Jack Hardcastle
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