Adequately_InsaneIt will only go downhill from here
On one hand, yes, but on the other, Stable Horde developed a model to detect CSAM thanks to Stable Diffusion and that’s being used to combat pedos globally
Isn’t it a good thing for pedophiles to have an outlet for their desires that doesn’t involve harming children? Am I not seeing an obvious downside?
Isn’t it a good thing for pedophiles to have an outlet for their desires that doesn’t involve harming children? Am I not seeing an obvious downside?
Pedophilia is not a sexuality and CSAM, AI generated or not, is not a healthy outlet. Pedophilia should be treated as a disease, and pedophiles should receive treatment for that instead.
idunnololzAFAIK you can’t “cute” pedophilia the same way you can’t cure homosexuality. The best you can do is teach people not to act on their desires.
Bernie EcclestonedChemical castration?
pedophiles should receive treatment for that instead
In a world where many people cannot afford basic healthcare or – if they can afford it – where healthcare isn’t available in the required quantity, does your argument still hold?
the treatment is daily merciless beatings
klingelstreichIt depends on whether you hold a world view where every person is valuable and needs help and understanding to become their best self or one where there are good and bad people and the baddies need to be punished and locked away so everyone else can live their life in peace.
That’s a ridiculously strict and binary view that reduces this issue to the point of absurdity.
I don’t think any minors are involved with AI generated stuff
involving minors
But if it’s just generated by AI there might be no involvement
It doesn’t matter. We cannot indulge the distribution of media with sex acts depicting minors.
I’m not saying it’s better alternative, I’m saying it might not make sense to talk about it “involving minors”.
All right, if we want to be picky about the wording “incredibly photo realistic depictions of minors.”
No if about it
That's not picky about wording.
While I agree that stuff like that should not exist at all in no way whatsoever, there is a vast difference between it existing because someone abused a child, recorded that and thus scarred the child for life, or if someone made a computer make up pixels in a way that is disgusting.
While I agree that stuff like that should not exist at all in no way whatsoever, there is a vast difference between it existing because someone abused a child, recorded that and thus scarred the child for life, or if someone made a computer make up pixels in a way that is disgusting.
someone made a computer make up pixels in a way that is disgusting
I like your analogy. The Saw movies were well-received (at first), even though most people would abhor hurting others in this way.
“I made up pixels in a way that depicts your 7 year old son [insert gross depiction of a sex act with me]. I don’t see the problem.”
That's a rather useless contribution to the discussion. The initial argument was a line of reasoning why artificial csam might be a benefit so people can vent their otherwise harmful behavior without harming actual people. You just flat out responded "it is enabling and doesn't stop distribution". So you just responded with "no, u wrong". Care to tell us you reasons behind your stance?
So did I just say “no u wrong“ or did I say “it is enabling it doesn’t stop distribution“? I am incredibly confused by your comment.
“it is enabling it doesn’t stop distribution“
Norgur’s point is that you didn’t provide any reasoning why that should be the case.
Giving pedophiles access to depictions of children nude/having sex is, at face value, enabling. By definition. They are literally indulging in the media for their own gratification.
Don’t AI models need to be trained on the material they are trying to emulate?
DeceptichumNo, not at all.
That’s why people like them, you can say make me a photo of a “monkey riding a pickle in space” or “a dog made of cheese” and it’ll make it despite obviously having no reference.
It only needs to be trained to know what things are, it can mix them freely.
massive_bereavementNow I want to see said monkey...
Ragdoll XPrompt your heart out, it’s free.
"Continue with Google", thanks I'm good B-)
Well, butter my turnips! That's not something I expected to see today and that cartoon version will eventually find its way into a shirt, I'm telling ya.
ivanafterallThese are great. What did you use for the animated version?
ComfyUI with AnimatedDiff
It’s a fair question. But the answer is concretely “no.” It’s indulging, even encouraging, the behavior/illness. And what happens when they start making requests of real underage people? They didn’t actually take the images. It’s still fake. But if it looks like a person in real life, what difference does the distinction make?
This literally happened in Spain recently btw.
Based on this article, it seems that teens were using an app: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/ai-generated-child-sexual-abuse-images-could-flood-the-internet-a-watchdog-is-calling-for-action/ar-AA1iMZj5
Is that your reference?
Yes but why does it being an app matter? The point is you can generate realistic but still fake imagery.
Stable Difussion still has some steep learning curve and requires some money investment onto hardware or cloud GPU access. Meaning they have probably several hours to re-think how stupid is what they're doing.
A simple app you can download into your phone and do this shit is a pretty easy and quick way of ruining two lives (probably).
Then again, the hammer should fall onto the developers and the app store that allowed it on the first place. (IMO)
Difficulty now =/= perpetually inaccessible. I would also caution against discounting people’s determination.
It’s still fake. But if it looks like a person in real life, what difference does the distinction make?
I'm pretty sure there is a quite a difference between an actual human being abused and a victimless depiction of such act. Not unlike watching a violent movie. Such people obviously still need help and treatment, but to me it seems vastly better than the alternative.
But it isn’t an either/or situation so it’s moot.
It very much might be an either/or situation for many, even if it's not in all the cases.
Citation needed
Back at you. We're both speculating.
No? I’m not making a claim. You are claiming it’s an either/or situation. The burden of proof rests squarely with you.
Previously you claimed it's enabling the behavior. Is it? Or is it merely a speculation?
And what happens when they start making requests of real underage people?
That’s the whole point of my argument. They don’t need to make request for real people if they can get fake ones of equal quality. Your argument reads like “We can’t let people have meat. What if they start eating live cows?”
That is not what I’m saying. But your argument is implying that if somehow we allow them to use AI generated child porn that it will somehow stop them from seeking the real stuff out. There is literally no evidence that suggests that in the slightest. It is enabling and assuming that it will somehow work itself out without any evidence that it will. For all we know, it will make things worse.
your argument is implying that if somehow we allow them to use AI generated child porn that it will somehow stop them from seeking the real stuff out or is somehow “better.”There is literally no evidence that suggests that in the slightest.
Of course. How would you procure such evidence? Give a group of pedophiles access to AI generated content and check if they molest children significantly less than a control group?
Pedophilia is an illness. […] You really need to […] take a macro view of what you are arguing in favor of.
I’m not defending pedophilia. Given that access to pedophilia treatment and prevention of sexual abuse is often lacking, I was starting a discussion of whether AI-generated content might be part of the prevention of sexual abuse of minors. After all, there are similar programs for drug abusers. Take methadone substitution as an example. Or establishments that are called “Drückerstube” in German (a very lacking translation would be “injection rooms”) – clean rooms where drug addicts have access to clean utensils for consuming drugs.
Methadone is distributed because weening off hard drugs can literally kill you.
[…Methadone] relieves cravings and removes withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal management using methadone can be accomplished […] or simply maintained for the rest of the patient’s life.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methadone (emphasis mine)
You also ignored my other example.
Dude frankly I’m over this discussion. Believe whatever you want.
That’s unfortunate. I was hoping to find arguments in favor of your point of view that are more substantial than proof by assertion.
While I obviously don’t agree with your take on the subject, I’m still glad you voiced your opinions, so we could examine and evaluate them.
I don’t appreciate the condescension to be perfectly frank. We are debating whether or not we should indulge the creation and distribution of child porn. I am not enjoying this conversation and every comment makes me more sour. I am ending it for my own mental health and outlook. I hope that’s understandable.
First if all: that is exactly how you treat addicts. https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-019-0340-4
Secondly: no, we don't have evidence that this might decrease the danger for pedophiles to act on their desires, since the technology is rather new.
Of course we should not enable urges like that. Yet, we have to be realistic: there will always be those that can't be treated. Do you want those who cannot be stopped from indulging in their desires to do so on children's images by real, abused children, or do you want them to vent on made up images?
Opioid substitution therapy for people living in German prisons—inequality compared with civic sector - Harm Reduction Journal
Background The above-average proportion of people with opioid use disorder living in prisons is a worldwide reality, and the need to treat these people was recognized internationally more than 20 years ago. Studies have shown that substitution therapies are best suited to treat opioid use disorder and reduce the risk of HIV and hepatitis C transmission and overdose. However, huge health inequalities exist in and outside of prison due to the different implementation of opioid substitution therapy (OST). People living in prisons are entitled to the best possible health care. This is established by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and by the International Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Solely the imprisonment, and not the loss of fundamental human rights, constitutes the punishment. Methods A qualitative literature search using PubMed and Google Scholar was performed in order to identify relevant publications. Results This review shows the inequality in availability of opioid substitution therapy for people living in prison compared with people outside of prison in Germany. It also gives possible reasons and evidence for this inequality, showing that continuing or initiating OST in prison is more beneficial for the health of people living in prison than abstinence-oriented treatment only. Conclusion It is important that drug use disorder is treated as a serious illness also in prison. Joint efforts are needed to provide people living in prison with the best possible treatment and to minimize the adverse effects of drug use. Therefore, with laws, policies, and programs that conform to international human rights standards, each state must ensure that people living in prison receive the same health care as people outside of prison.
If I’m not mistaking I remember reading that consuming CSAM increases the likelihood of offense since it normalizes the act/makes the fantasies more vivid. It makes them more want to act out what they see instead of removing desires.
What’s interesting is that mammals from mice to dogs don’t draw a distinction between arbitrary ages before trying to copulate. On the other hand, they don’t try to fuck the equivalent of pre-pubescent members of their species either, nothing natural about that.