Answering this question: https://law-and-politics.online/@short[email protected]/111429189190084052

Nobody really knows what is meant by "officer of the government." It might include the president. It might not. A president occupies a unique position under the Constitution.

Basically what the judge did was punt the issue to the appellate court.

The judge found that Trump incited an insurrection (a finding of fact) but didn't find that he was an officer of the federal government (a matter of law).

Here's why the distinction matters . . .

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shorty60 🇺🇸 (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Have you seen the Colorado decision on the 14th amendment case to keep Trump off the ballot there? If so, can you explain why they would hold that the President is not an officer of the government? Constitutional law may not be your thing but I value your thoughts. This one really perplexes me.

Mastodon @ SDF

If an issue that goes to an appellate court is an issue of law, the appellate court reviews de novo, which means that no deference is given to the lower court.

See:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/de_novo

With an issue of fact, appellate courts are more deferential to lower courts.

I didn't read the decision but this is from ABC⤵️

As far as what the judge was thinking, your guess is as good as mine, but from this, I'd guess that . . .

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de novo

LII / Legal Information Institute

. . . the judge found more textual support for finding that the president is not an officer than for the finding that he is.

Picture a balance scale with slightly more weight on one side.

So now it goes to the appellate court, which might have more nerve than the trial court.

The important part of the finding, though, was that he incited an insurrection.

The appellate court can overturn that, but it unlikely and more difficult because of the greater deference to findings of facts.

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Welcome to the world of constitutional and statutory interpretation.

Basically, the Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court says it means because the Supreme Court is the final arbiter and the Constitution is stuffed full of phrases and words that can be interpreted in different ways.

An interpretation of the word "reasonable" in the Fourth Amendment has literally filled books.

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The Third Section of the Fourteenth Amendment was added to the Constitution after the Civil War to keep former Confederates out of the government.

The idea was to prevent backsliding.

It didn't work because, by the late 1890s, the government and Supreme Court were stuffed full of Confederate sympathizers who rolled back the advances made during Reconstruction and gave us racial segregation.

You can keep out the insurrectionists but not the insurrection sympathizers.

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Judge Luttig offered a passionate critique of the Colorado judge's decision.

With most legal issues, it is possible to argue both sides.

People read these passionate critiques and think "The judge was wrong."

The only conclusion is "Luttig believes the judge was wrong."

Maybe my attitude comes from defense appellate work, which means mostly losing and rarely liking court decisions.

(My clients always lost at the trial level and the presumptions on appeal were against them.)

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Adding one more comment:

The court left wide open the possibility that the appellate court may find that Trump was an officer.

Sort of humbly, the court didn't think it should be the one to make the call.

I think that Colorado certainly has the right to keep Trump off the ballot. I also think that these court proceedings would satisfy due process.

So we'll see.

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@Teri_Kanefield The reasoning of the insurrection clause appears quite general: If a person has broken their oath of office, they cannot take that oath again. For it would be presumed they would break it again. An “officer” is then anyone who would take an oath of office. This reasoning applies to Presidents. Breaking their oath to the constitution through insurrection means they can never be trusted to take the oath again. What is so difficult about that?

@GJGoldberg

Did you read this list:

"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State. . ."

See anything missing?

The idea is to try to understand the judge's reasoning.

@Teri_Kanefield @GJGoldberg

It seems that presidents and vice presidents are not "officers" under the 14th Amendment. A previous pres/vp would not be considered by the writers to be a future threat of insurrection, I assume.

Surely the writers assumed that any future pres or vp who attempted a coup would be impeached and convicted by Congress forthwith! Once convicted, they wouldn't be eligible for office again.

@dswidow @GJGoldberg
@PennyG @kkeller

Another possibility: The president was deliberately left off the list.

It's easy to imagine a former Confederate state sending Senators who had been Confederate leaders. The House always had its crazies because they come from smaller districts. There have been other Marjorie Taylor Greenes.

But maybe there was more respect for how presidents are elected. They are not elected from a particular region but from electors from each state.

@Teri_Kanefield @GJGoldberg

That sounds quite right. I forgot about the original intent of the elector system.

Ironic that the same system that was intended to protect us from the crazies is now being used against us by the crazies.

@dswidow

@Teri_Kanefield @GJGoldberg
This system wasn't intended to protect us from the crazies, it was intended to give deference to slave owning men. The electoral college was almost an after thought.

@Teri_Kanefield @dswidow @GJGoldberg but this is sort of my thinking: if the authors of the Amendment didn't want an insurrectionist President, then they could not have meant to exclude the office from their amendment. In that scenario, I feel like being an originalist is very justified.
The relevant part of that looks like "no person shall hold any office having previously taken an oath as an officer of the US". To me it looks pretty obvious that "hold an office" and "officer" refer to the same thing. If they intended a specific exception for people who had been president or vice president, I would have expected that they would have made that explicit.

@mcv But, you know POTUS doesn’t take an oath, as he assumes his office. It’s just all a figment of our (collective) imagination. It’s why the Chief Justice can screw up the words and not worry about redoing it because it’s not real, this “oath of office”

Yes, this angry sarcasm. I’m sick of cowards, protecting themselves and not the country. But I’ll be sure to explain this reasoning the next time in Arlington Cemetery.