Lee DunaA Jury Will Decide If Google's App Store Is an Unjust Monopoly
TheRealKuniHow could it be? Most Android manufacturers, including Google, allow you to use other app stores.
If anyone has an Unjust Monopoly in this space it’s Apple. (Though I think it’s unfortunately more complicated than that, as much as I’d love to see Apple forced to let other app stores on.)
SteveThe Play Store is installed by default, and doesn’t allow other app stores to be listed. So the only way to install another one, is to go out on the net and download an APK directly. When you try to install it, the system gives you a warning that it can be dangerous. Just those two hurdles are enough to ensure the vast majority of users will never leave the Play Store.
Surely the warning is justified though? Yes it’s a hurdle, but it seems reasonable and other platforms also warn users about apps from unverified sources, so it is common within the industry. If the play store is determined to be a monopoly, and gets broken up or off, I think a warning would still be warranted.
The default install thing used to be an issue, i.e. MS Explorer, but people seem to have stopped caring since all OS’s now have pre-installed junk.
I guess the argument could be made thst the play store should allow downloading of other app stores? I’d be in favor of that, but I don’t know if the courts can force something like that.
Yes it’s a hurdle, but it seems reasonable
99% of of users never get over that hurdle, which makes it unreasonable.
And the apps are from “unverified sources” because Google deliberately refuses to verify them. They’re happy to verify every single company in the world with a website… but they won’t verify even the major third party app stores?
And? For anyone who actually wants another app store, that’s not exactly a high bar of technical know-how. In fact, for the most part it’s the way stuff works on other platforms as well (provided you even have the option of choosing on those).
If you want to install Steam on Windows you need to download it, click through, and run the installer.
Linux may have snap etc, but to add unofficial software channels you need to manually edit things.
Apple straight out says “nope” on iOS unless you jailbreak.
CorkyskogThe Play Store is installed by default, and doesn’t allow other app stores to be listed.
Not saying it’s much better, but my phone came with the playstore and the “Galaxy store”… now there isn’t a lot of useful stuff in the Galaxy store, but you can wager money against other players in games of solitaire, bingo and bubble pop… so there’s that at least…
In xiaomi phones there is a xiaomi store, in Samsung phones there is a galaxy store, and here in Spain if you buy a phone through a ISP, you may get another app store from said ISP (I know Orange and Vodaphone do this, Vodaphone going as far as preinstalling shitty mobile games on their phones to get a commission)
Apple should be on trial, but that doesn’t mean Google shouldn’t be
Epic and Apple have already had this battle two years ago. Epic lost. They’ve filed an appeal already. They served Apple and Google at the same time. Google removed Fortnite within hours of Apple doing so. Epic will battle Google, and if they lose here, they will likely appeal this too.
This is correct, but misses some semantics. Apple won because they argued that they controlled everything on the iPhone to give it a coherent design. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to allow 3rd parties to swap out the profitable component from underneath them.
Google on the other hand has always allowed 3rd party versions of things on Android- so Google can’t make the same argument.
(I’m not defending anything here, only summarizing the cases)
That’s fair. I didn’t want to go into too much detail, and there is some information on this in the posts linked article. I still think Google will win this though. While both companies have revenue in the billions, Google has revenue nearly a hundred times epic. That seems to usually factor in to who wins these things.
I’m just baffled by how many people are saying “Google?! Let’s put Apple on trial instead!” Apple has already gone through this and will likely again. This information is spelled out pretty clearly in the linked article. In my opinion, they should all be on trial. As much as I love steam, valve should be on trial too. 30% cut for the platforms the majority of people use (effectively locking devs into using those platforms) is an insult, and it’s untenable for a lot of smaller devs.
These predatory pricing practices are equivalent to highway robbery to me. If we keep saying, oh Apple should be on trial not Google! then these companies win. They want us to be in conflict with each other so we don’t notice the other hand moving.
It’s a monopsony - a monopoly from the other side.
Google Play Store is not the single seller of apps to users but a single sensible buyer from developers. Of course with most apps being free of change, “buyer” and “seller” are loose terms to satisfy the definition.
It’s both really.
As an app developer it’s a monopsony.
As an app user its a monopoly.
As an app developer it’s a monopsony.
As an app user its a monopoly.
Avid AmoebaImagine how untenable Apple’s position would be if the Play Store is proven to be a monopoly.
Apple has already gone through this. Apple won. It’s unlikely epic will beat Google either. When they likely lose, they will file an appeal just like they’ve done with Apple.
RobotToasterMicrosoft was considered a monopoly for including internet explorer with windows, despite the fact you could still install a 3rd party browser.
They weren’t considered a monopoly for including IE, they were considered a monopoly for very much being the dominant OS and then were abusing said monopoly to block competing products or standards.
That’s not true.
It wouldn’t hurt forcig them to allow other app stores to be listed in the app store.
Epic already went to court for the same thing with Apple in 2021. Epic lost. They’ve filed an appeal already. Apple and Google both removed Fortnite from their respective stores within hours of each other.
It’s unlikely epic will win this battle, but if they don’t, they will likely file an appeal against Google as well.
TeknikalI’ve noticed the play store try and stop me from installing the odd sideloaded or fdroid app. It seems to be getting more common the last few months.
I’m thinking they are going to pull a no sideloaded thing sometime just to get rid of adblockers etc
Gradually_AdjustingIt is difficult to see the case for this compared to Alphabet’s monopolistic hold on searches, and their extremely pervasive power to place ads.
ZinkNot really a monopoly, sadly. Still found it a dick move the first time it warned me that an apk I downloaded wasn’t from play.
“Monopoly - (economics) a market in which there are many buyers but only one seller”
Certainly a practical monopoly, if not a literal one. I would bet 99.9% of all app installs on android are through the Play Store.
Google Play accounts for well over 90 percent of all downloads onto Android phones in the US, according to state prosecutors
SLaSZTIt would be nice to have F-Droid and other app repos available on the Play Store. Or some other solution that puts alternative app sources on a more level playing field.
ZakTechnical characteristics like Android making it hard or impossible for third-party app stores to auto-update, as well as restrictive agreements with phone manufacturers and carriers are pretty damning. Google deserves to lose based on that, however,
their devices sometimes warn that the “file might be harmful” and require settings to be changed to allow “unknown” apps
Chrome on Windows warns that a .exe download might be harmful. Chrome on Linux warns that a .deb download might be harmful. We have a long history of malware using drive-by downloads or trying to pose as non-executable file types as evidence that these features are in the user’s interests. At most, some rewording of “unknown” sources might be in order.
For everyone in the back of the room, monopoly in the context doesn’t require to literally have no other choice. It’s enough for the alternatives to be impractical as in not widely used in practice.
Well that’s an easy one then, if that’s true.
Especially for Apple phones, damn.
Yeah it’s pretty obnoxious how much control the app stores have.
It does make device security easier, but
guyrocketI'm not the world's most elite hacker, but I know a thing or two and it took me a long time to get F-Droid going on my Android and even longer to figure out how to side load apps and where to get the files for side loading.
It can be done but I'd guess 99% of people out there have never and will never do these 2 things.
Is it possible that alternatives are not widely used because most people don’t want to use alternatives in the first place?
Sure it is. It doesn’t change the monopoly position. The real question isn’t whether this is a monopoly but whether it’s being abused. E.g. imagine if Google charged 99% fee on any sale via the Play Store. Or if Google disallowed alternative methods of payment but their own for any app distributed on the Play Store.
penquinImagine how Apple will feel if Google got docked for this. Apple’s app store is even worse. You can’t even side load apps on an iPhone/iPad without jailbreak.
You can side load them, kinda, its just a huge pain so your point still stands
Do you have a method that keeps sideloaded apps “verified” permanently? If you do, please do tell. I’d love to install YouTube++ on my kid’s tablet so they don’t have to sit through ads all the time.
Just download Xcode, it’s free, and it’s from Apple. With that you can deploy any app (if you have the binary) on ten devices linked to your own Apple ID and the devices of a hundred other Apple IDs (supposed to be work colleagues, but your kid’s tablet will be fine).
You can also “sideload” your app to up ten thousand devices linked to other Apple IDs via TestFlight which is intended for developers to test apps that aren’t ready for distribution yet, though that process does require a partial review by Apple (it’s mostly just an automated malware scan, not a full app review).
Check out Yattee on the App Store. It’s a client for Piped.
Yattee
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Thank you so much. I’ll check it out
Epic sued Apple in 2021. Google and Apple removed Fortnite from their respective app stores within hours of each other. Epic was ready with lawyers and announced they were going to court. They lost the case against Apple. They’ve already filed an appeal.
There is a kind of precedent for this actually, back in the 90s when Microsoft got dinged for bundling internet explorer with Windows. This feels like it’s basically the same thing.
Pat_RiotAnd that changed so much…
It actually did - Microsoft is an ethical company now, they’ve done a great job with GitHub for example and also more successful than they ever were in the bad old days when they terrorised the industry.
Microsoft is an ethical company now
Apart from the whole ripping off open source code to make their closed source copilot thing?
Can you elaborate? Don’t want to sound like an apologist, just genuinely curious
they use github to train copilot, which sometimes reproduces code without paying attention to the license of the code it’s regurgitating.
Makes sense
Super ethical… Just bundling a ton of Spyware in with windows and trying to lock down your hardware into their ecosystem even though it didn’t come from them… 🙄
Is this sarcasm? I really can’t tell.
What am I missing? You can download other app stores like Aurora or F-Droid do what’s the monopoly?
Right? This should be squarely aimed at Apple rather than Google. Google certainly makes it a little difficult, but unlike Apple it’s at least possible to do through official features without literally hacking the device.
Potentially it’s targeting google first to set a precedent?
They sued Apple in 2021. They lost. They’ve filed an appeal, and we will see how the court handles this. They announced intent to sue for both companies in 2020. It’s not about third party app stores so much as the 30% cut both companies take on app sales AND in app purchases.
Epic is suing Google with claims that Google has a monopoly on their App Store. It will likely not be successful.
Epic already sued Apple 2 years ago with an incredibly similar trial. Epic lost that trial, but has filed an appeal, so they may get their day in court again for that one.
The complaint is that epic started allowing its Epic Direct Payment service through Fortnite on mobile. Google and Apple both take a 30% cut from any sales through their App Store. Apple pulled Fortnite from the App Store basically immediately. Google followed suit several hours later.
Epic expressed their intent to sue both companies immediately. They likely were prepared to litigate, knowing the two would not be happy. I do think personally that 30% is a ridiculous amount. Valve also takes a 30% cut from games sold on steam. I think that is criminal for all of these app stores.
I’m not an epic fan, but they only take a 12% cut on their store, so I have to applaud them for that.
A monopoly is whatever the party says it is
We have always been at war with Eastasia
A you being sarcastic?
mlgGoogle enforces the installation of the crappy side bar google feed if you want to ship your phone with Google Play and Gapps
It also includes some other wacky tacky tracking and data collection bs, and some magic legal licensing stupidity that basically lets google control your software packages with what must be installed as system apps.
Google spent the past decade basically ensuring no competitor app store succeeds. No OEM uses Aurora, and only FOSS people use F-Droid. Samsung Shop is also a joke.
Anytime OEMs even try to make an alternative function, Google hangs their Gapps policy over them and prevents them from ever releasing into the market. Most notably affected are most of the Chinese brands which also got slammed by US government bans. “China government surveillance” is not an excuse when gapps literally do the exact same thing.
I think the last phone I ever had that had its own unique android apps and tools was the LeEco Le 2/S3, which came out in 2016. Nowadays, you can’t even use allegedly superior RCS without google’s crappy Gapps messages app.
It’s the other stuff that you are forced to accept if you want access to google play store.
Its not really solely about the play store.
This might all become irrelevant in March/April 2024 once the European Digital Markets Act (DMA) kicks in. Apple will have to allow and even enable side-loading on their junk. Both Google and Apple will have to allow third-party payment services and reduce their cut from 30% to (IIRC) 15%.
But if a court in the US makes the right decision, it might have an additional ripple effect. 🤞