Stamets [Mirror]Phasers set to "Bitch please"
lugalThat’s what bothers me for a long time now and I’m glad I’m not alone: I like the stories but a black woman on the bridge? Really? But it’s ok, she was born in Africa so she’s not necessarily a former slave. What bothers me more is a later development: A Russian on a supposedly American ship! Even if it’s not explicitly American, there are Americans on the bridge and they sure as hell won’t serve with a Russian! What do they think? The cold war is over? But I have great hope in the planned new series. I hope the Next Generation won’t be that woke.
FiripuJust imagine what they could come up in the future. A female captain? A black station commander? No way, Star Trek has gone down the gutter. I’m not watching TNG. They can stick their wokeness where the sun don’t shine.
I’m all for the idea of wokeness, but there are those that take it to an extreme. Those that would silence a black man making a honest case for color-blindness, calling him racist. Those that won’t put in any thought before declaring anyone who disagrees with them a racist/transphobe/xenophobe etc etc etc.
There is room for honest discussion and critical thinking, but there is this mob mentality ultraleft (and yea this exists in the right too) that seems incapable of critical thought and only capable of hating anything that opposes the groupthink.
Maybe just keep to the porn, eh?
Forgot to switch accounts, whoops. Easy to do when you always casually browse c/all
buT BoTH SidEs
You know, it’s possible to be a leftist and still not agree 100% with the everything.
The response to my comment is precisely what I hate about the left. And yet, I’m still so much more aligned with the left that I could ever be with the right.
You’re not wrong, but this thread is the first time I’ve seen someone make that argument and not immediately dive into a bunch of alt-right talking points.
you can always tell when someone has said something terrible and got called a fascist/nazi for it because they say stuff like this
It couldn’t be that I watched a talk like this:
youtu.be/QxB3b7fxMEA?si=_HLVoBr0moJg6Mkb
And liked the ideas, but then see that it’s being used to call the speaker racist and attempts at silencing him. Plus the unwillingness to even have a conversation.
youtu.be/KKZlb-MdzKo?si=bohTJwhwMD9QehI-
You vilify the idea of “just asking questions” to the point that no one can ask questions. That leaves me standing here, not understanding your position, but unwilling to blindly accept everything I’m told to think.
Sure, there are people who weaponize “just asking questions”, but is the solution really just to call every person with a contrary opinion a fucking nazi?
A Case for Color Blindness | Coleman Hughes | TED
Ah yes, the alt right debate me.bro youtube pipeline. You probably think you’re having this unique experience, but all the other losers went down the exact same path.
If you say shit that people think is racist or nazi like, people are gonna call you a racist or a nazi. You won’t have a fun time here because your weirdo alt right youtube pipeline shit has already started to corrupt your brain and people are gonna keep calling the weirdo shit you say racist, sexist, transphoblic, or nazi like.
Have a fun time trying to get people not to do that they want to do that, and we are all in full support. Maybe you’ll have a better time on the weirdo alt right social medias
Let’s say you’re right, shouldn’t people try to stop other from going down that pipeline? Send a Destiny video or something.
But I don’t think you’re right, I’ve been just about at this same point for 15 years.
I love having conversations because I love deeply understanding things. I toy with ideas like little fidget toys, sometimes they end up being more interesting or useful and sometimes a friend tells me it’s dangerous and I put that idea down.
I’m curious, did you see what videos I posted? It’s a black guy advocating for class based social justice. If he’s wrong, if the ideas he’s espousing are dangerous, I’d honestly like to understand how.
… but “debate me bro” and “I’m just asking questions” means I can no longer debate or ask questions. Well, at least on the internet.
Thankfully I’ve got friends who know me, understand my intents, and also seem to enjoy having these conversations with me.
you keep the things that get you called racist, nazi and transphobe to you and your friends then
but you shouldn’t be crying outrage when you do say things and then people label you from that, you said the things, maybe use that as a moment of reflection on yourself.
Welp, I tried reflecting on my original comment and how it makes me a nazi, but I’m just coming up blank.
Guess I’m just a nazi now. Remind me, what do the nazis think of brown people?
my dude, literally no one called you a nazi
it’s a very very simple thought process, if people call you a nazi, reflect on why people are calling you a nazi. Don’t just reach for Help Help, I’m Being Oppressed!
Can you give us a good example that is exclusive to the ultra left, which doesn’t involve bigotry or “just asking questions” talking points?
Otherwise, the whole groupthink problem is a much wider issue, and why the two party system in the US is a problem.
Oh, no it is an everybody issue. It’s just what puts me off from people I otherwise frequently agree with.
Remember when the ultraleft cancelled Bud Light?
So because the right is a bunch of fucking retarded donkeys, the left is infallible. Got it.
Arguing in good faith, I see.
I thought I was just matching your snarky tone.
By throwing out a slur?
You do realize that English is a huge language and you can pick a word that doesn’t punch down on an entire group of people, right?
I’m literally punching down on an entire group of people, republicans.
Also, I don’t quite grasp all the rules of slurs. I’m not making a derogatory use of the term towards someone with a intellectual disability (also, that’s a term that’s starting to pick up the same “slur” vibes, just as retard did from originally being a medical term).
Am I allowed to use the term retard if I myself have a learning disability? What if I’m of some other demonstrably lower caste group of people in the American social order? Is that still punching down?
I’d honestly ask those questions, but then if me “just asking questions” so let’s just say those are rhetorical and we can just end the conversation here.
Go back even further! The cage almost canceled the entire show because a woman was merely implied to be captaining the ship for a quick while 😰😰
And NBC threw a tantrum because of Uhura’s and Kirk’s kiss, which was made more ridiculous because the backlash they expected never came. I wonder how often they self-censored without any reason.
The wasn’t just implied to be anything, she was second in command. Don’t get me wrong, I’m totally for inclusion and diversity and stuff but a woman second in command is where I draw the line.
My favorite TOS episode was the one where they showed the clear superiority of the aliens with the white/black faces over the aliens with the black/white faces. The genocide part went a bit far, but in the end those black/white face guys had it coming.
You almost make it seem ridiculous by calling it black/white faces. It was the whole body! They wear gloves so you didn’t see it but it wasn’t just the face. That in mind, the white/black skinned were totally in their right. The genocide didn’t even happen, it’s just made up like most genocides are. The black/white people just prevented worse from happening.
dontcarebear If anything, you could complain that it is copy pasted from modern culture, and doesn’t imagine the history of the timeline up until then, such as bell riots, eugenics wars, world wars, vulcans, establishment of the federation…
It feels disconnected from the world. Like an American microcosm snapshot of 2023 dropped into the world of the Star Trek future.
THAT I can understand as criticism.
Just calling it woke because “woke is bad” is just political trolling as it is everywhere. Like a cheap bot.
Kit SorensMy favorite thing is to have them define “woke.” When they can’t because it’s only a buzzword to them, I explain it means “waking up” to the idea that you’re not the only human being with a purpose-filled life, that there are others for whom the system is built to deal a bad hand, and that the most ironic part is that 9 times out of 10 the individual I’m speaking to is not on the list of the “system’s chosen.”
𝗧𝗼𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿 *𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑝𝑢𝑠ℎ𝑒𝑑 𝑑𝑜𝑤𝑛
GiganTo me, woke is when identity politics issues are intentionally inserted into a piece of media not to improve the quality of the story, but to push the creators political opinions. Even when I agree with them it annoys me, because it takes me out of the story and makes me feel like I’m being preached too or I’m consuming propaganda.
So gay characters should only be in media to tell stories about gay people problems? Is that how you think the real world works, like a gay person never accomplished anything other than progressing the gay agenda. Why can’t there just be a story of a man who does a thing and then goes home to his husband. You know, like how real life works lol.
Well that’s not what it means. It means being aware of and opposed to systemic injustices in our society, that’s all it means.
TNG was close to having a transgender episode, “The Outcast”, but they were stuck in their time and didn’t really make any kind of statement.
TOS made several comments on religion and running into powerful beings. In particular “Who Mourns for Adonais?”, which would’ve been a great take if not for Kirk saying “Mankind has no need for gods. We find the one quite adequate”.
I thought having Riker fall in love with one of the enby people was about as close to a statement of support as they could get in the 90s.
I watched season 1 of Picard and discovery and they just didn’t feel like Star Trek to me. The people complaining about how “woke” it is just distract from legitimate criticism. A lot of it for me was the sets. Their design was dark, gloomy and had an air of oppression that, while present in various forms across trek, wasn’t previously baked into the design of the federation. It was all moody lighting and permenantly frowning actors. That temperament translated into the writing as well but you’ve already addressed part of that. And I’ve got a bone to pick in general with season 1 of Picard but that’s a whole other rant lol
That’s the problem with woke as a term. No one can agree on what woke actually means, a bit like fascism.
Does it mean hyper left politics shoved in existing IPs? Sure, a lot would agree with that. How about overly corporate content that has as much soul as a lug nut? What about just generally bad content, or overdone content like the current round of superheo movies? I wouldn’t call them woke, but many would.
The problem with Star Trek and wokeness is that TNG/DS9/Voy was filled with 80s/90s era wokeness. Most people can get behind that. But 2020s era wokeness is a different beast, and it doesn’t seem to fit with the older content.
Both terms are clearly defined and people choose to use them wrong, like you did with your examples.
People where always upset with the level of “wokeness” in Star Trek. The difference being that less where aware of it and if you wanted to complain you had to physically write a letter, go down to the post office, buy some stamps, and mail it in. Today you can just tweet some bullshit from your couch.
The point I was making there is no set definition for woke. And I probably shouldn’t have brought up fascism as a term, because while it’s a similar issue, it’s just not an argument to make. (For the record, fascism does not refer to 1930s Italy anymore, it’s evolved overtime)
Woke is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular meaning “alert to racial prejudice and discrimination”. Woke has been used this way for decades and anyone using it differently is using it incorrectly.
Language evolves. Just ask anyone with a they/them pronoun.
Woke didn’t evolve, it was highjacked and purposely used incorrectly to mock.
Stay woke dude!
StillPaisleyCatThose of us who can remember the UseNet, AOL and BBS rants against LaForge, Sisko & Janeway can vouch that it was no less toxic in the late 1980s and 90s. It was just less of a mass conversation.
emptyotherNo one can agree on what woke actually means
Truth. Word trends take some time to spread around the world, and by the time it reached me it was used mostly as a derogatory term. I could not figure out what it meant from context. Initially I thought it was related to red-pillers because it was used by the same kind of angry people.
I had to look up the definition eventually.
TNG was woke, and DS9 was dark. What star trek is has always been.
I started with The Orville (I know, it’s not Star Trek), then Lower Decks, TNG, and now DS9. If you want woke, The Orville is very woke and I really enjoyed it, they brought up trans rights and gay rights issues. Following that, TNG isn’t really woke I don’t think, there’s still some traditional patriarchy issues in there iirc but it’s still a pretty moderate show.
In my opinion, The Orville is the startreckiest series ever made.
DS9 was also woke and fun. TNG and TOS had dark episodes.
I miss the diversity in modern trek
GloomyAs a rather left leaning Person I have no problem with New Trek beeing “woke” in general.
I fucking hate Discovery, to a point tust I had to give up on it after season 3. Picards first 2 season where almost as bad (I like the this season, more or less).
The problem is not so much the wokeness of those series, it’s that it’s just bad storytelling.
The way how woke ideas are implemented just feels like pandering to the audience. Homosexualyity, Non Binary characters, enviromentalism… I approve representation for all of those and would have loved to see them integrated in a meaningfull way. But the way they were handled it felt wrong to me, as if they were forced into the story rather than emerging from it organicly.
Can’t LGBT+ be included unless its meaningful? I dont like that “pandering” argument. It is too easy to misuse, too subjective.
I want them included in bad shows as much as in good shows. I want a random background person to be gay just as much as an important character. Best case would be if we didnt even raise an eyebrow on seeing a LGBT+ character and rather critizise their acting or plot instead of blaming “pandering”. I dont hear anyone call forcing a unecessary romantic straight subplot into a plot for “pandering”.
I dont hear anyone call forcing a unecessary romantic straight subplot into a plot for “pandering”.
That line needs to be screamed from the heavens. For every single person who claims that “Oh their sexuality or identity feels forced” they seem to have no problem with stuff like Hulk and Black Widow having a relationship, or baby t-shirts saying surprisingly sexual stuff (or at least innuendo). Or saying that their kids are dating someone else simply because their child dares to be friends with the opposite sex.
It’s exhausting. Everytime there is a gay character it has to meet some random standard that does not exist for any straight characters.
LilB0kChoyBest case would be if we didnt even raise an eyebrow on seeing a LGBT+ character
This is what I’ve liked about Discovery in particular. It feels to meet like it’s just organic and normal. They don’t highlight or make a spectacle of the LGBT+ characters’ gender/identity and it’s just there, normal and regular, just like in real life.
Well, as someone who’s gay, I’d say that the representation from Stamets and Culber didn’t feel forced or unnatural. If Stamets were straight and Culber were a woman then nothing would change. If Adira wasn’t non-binary then nothing would change. If Grey wasn’t trans then nothing would change. Stamets was on screen for like two episodes before you ever find out that he’s gay. Culber on for one. Adira doesn’t mention that they’re non-binary until halfway through Season 3 and the reaction is literally just “Okay” and they move on. Grey only has two throwaway lines mentioning a previous transition. Their characters are all well established without their sexuality or identity having any impact on the show. It would all be the same characters but straight. The show goes out of its way to demonstrate that being gay, trans or non-binary has literally nothing to do with the content of your character.
I am getting slightly tired though of seeing people who aren’t part of the community saying that the representation of us ‘feels forced’. Our mere existence isn’t forced. Moreover, are you really the one who gets to judge this? After people trying to kill us for decades, and then using us for marketing purposes, now y’all wanna judge whether our existence is “forced”?
Calm down.
You don’t need to go into full attack Mode here. Im happy for you, that you felt repretented. I did not feel the way they handled it felt like good representstion. I’d be happy to see more representstion in general, I just wish it would be embedded into a better told story. If you are cool with the way it’s done: Good for you.
I am getting slightly tired though of seeing people who aren’t part of the community saying that the representation of us ‘feels forced’. Our mere existence isn’t forced. Moreover, are you really the one who gets to judge this? After people trying to kill us for decades, and then using us for marketing purposes, now y’all wanna judge whether our existence is “forced”?
This is a beautiful example of heteronormativity at work. You can disagree with me on how and if Discovery did a good job of representing LGBTQI+. topic or not without assuming my sexuality or implying thst I called out for the war on gays, thank you very much.
I am calm. If I was in attack mode it would be very different.
Im happy for you, that you felt repretented. I did not feel the way they handled it felt like good representstion.
Why? You have not yet explained or elaborated that point. You’ve just went “Nah. Not good.” Meanwhile that representation has won literal awards from multiple different international organizations that are specifically devoted to LGBTQIA+ representation.
’d be happy to see more representstion in general, I just wish it would be embedded into a better told story.
There is a massive difference between “the story isn’t a good one and gay characters shouldn’t be brought down by bad writing” and “this is bad representation and feels forced”. You did not originally say that it was “embedded into a better told story” originally which is what I’m responding to.
This is a beautiful example of heteronormativity at work.
Correct. I assumed you were straight because I have yet to meet anyone from the LGBTQIA+ community who would be so self-sabotaging that they say it’s bad representation while being wildly unclear about your stance and opinion. While it’s a little on me to make an assumption, you can’t exactly blame me when for my entire life I’ve been forced to justify my simple existence to people who constantly judge me day after day by what they think the standard is. Not only that but generally I think that if someone is going to be giving the opinion on whether or not the representation is good of a particular group, they should openly be saying that they’re part of the group. Otherwise it just sounds like you’re a complete stranger looking in and judging the representation on behalf of a group that never asked for it.
Gay characters are allowed to exist. The representation was fine and probably the best representation that we’ve gotten in a while. Moreover, it’s the only representation we’ve gotten on a large scale in Star Trek at any point in history. And once again, it has won literal awards for its representation.
Edit: The amount of you who are willing to downvote me for daring to point out blatant bigotry, while upvoting that same bigotry, is absolutely disgusting. You should be utterly fucking ashamed of yourself.
I feel like often criticism of how representation is done in media is really just veiled criticism that it’s normalized in the show.
It’s like representation should only be blatant and pandering (so it can be called woke by the same people) or so far in the background it’s easy to ignore it or not catch it if you’re not who’s being represented.
I love that it’s just business as usual in these shows and the representation is organic, because that’s real life.
Exactly.
your depression is getting the better of you