gedaliyahHamas blocks foreign nationals from leaving Gaza
rooIs the Telegraph a good source for info on this?
DeceptichumThe Torygraph is a step up from the lowest tier tabloid.
Frog-BrawlerAs an atheist, I’ve generally avoided that area of the world. I’m quite happy to not be directly involved in this stupidity.
downpunxxcowards like you said the same thing while they were shipping jews to auschwitz in cattle cars. nothing ever changes.
TinyPizzaNo need to ship em anywhere if you have them all surrounded in a prison called Gaza and drop death on em. ^Say's the coward that complains about people being able to see your racist and fascistic posts after you block them. "why can't I say these horrific things without anyone dissenting!"
Oh yes, the old “I’m an atheist so I avoid Germany” argument we’ve all heard a thousand times
I’m a coward?
Bruno_Myersbeing against Israel doesn’t mean you hate Jews you fucking weirdo
Nazis were explicitly Christian lol
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
Who’s doing a auschwitz again?
Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly Christian. Also, the athiests of the time were fighting or contributing to the war efforts of their country just like every other person was. There just wasn’t to many openly atheistic people due to the discrimination at the time.
There's got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn't leave it to Israel lol.
It probably involves with allying with the PLO or some more secular faction of Palestinians, and Egypt. But they'd need to give something to them or else no one has a reason to support them unless they have some victories they can point to.
you deny what "palestinians" have given themselves generationally to achieve with hamas, pij, hezbollah, the plo. you deny "palestinians" their personhood in their singular terrorist fight against jews, and for the destruction of israel, the communal refusal to live in peace, when you think there is any daylight at all whatsoever between the "palestinian" community and jew raping, slaughtering, and burning islamic terrorists.
who do you think makes up these groups, whose sons, and husbands and grandfathers do you think these fucking terrorist animals are, where do you think they sleep at night, whose table do you think they eat at?
amazing
Each of these individual elements is not in and of itself fascist, but you have to worry when they’re all grouped together, when honest conservatives are lured into fascism by people who tell them, “Look, it’s an existential fight. I know you don’t accept everything we do. You don’t accept every doctrine. But your family is under threat. Your family is at risk. So without us, you’re in peril.” Those moments are the times when we need to worry about fascism.
Yale Professor Jason Stanley Identifies 10 Tactics of Fascism: The “Cult of the Leader,” Law & Order, Victimhood and More
What is fascism? Fascism is an ideology developed and elaborated in early 20th-century Western Europe and enabled by technology, mass media, and weapons of war. Most of us learned the basics of that development from grade school history textbooks.
On Lemmy, we are past the point of denying Palestinians exist or putting that word between brackets.
This shit won’t fly here. You can’t start a sentence by denying a whole group exists.
There's got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn't leave it to Israel lol.
Israel is going to try its best. Nobody else is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. Most of the international community isn't even willing to condemn Hamas, let alone go in there and get rid of them. Israel literally calls them up in the buildings they're going to bomb and says "please evacuate this building by this time!" You can't make that shit up.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don't get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that. They didn't blockade Gaza for fun, blockades are expensive. But burying the dead from the constant attacks of a Hamas with infinite weaponry is fucking worse.
Gaza Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony: Kids Stage Mock Military Attack and Hostage-Taking
The first step to deradicalize them is to stop putting Palestinians in a concentration camp. Simple as.
Limitless_screamingIf Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don't get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn't defend themselves on your way out.
There are no settlements in Gaza. In 2005, there were no settlements, there was no blockade, there was nothing but an opportunity for peace, and then, they elected Hamas.
If you're afraid that Egypt or the UN is going to invite settlers in, that Egyptian police or the UN police are going to attack them, you might want to reevaluate your world view.
Let's discuss another place inside of Palestine where there is an opportunity for peace; the West bank ruled by the Fatah government, which recognizes "Israel". They also have no weapons that they can realistically use against settlers and the invading army.
Here's what happens in the West bank, settlements exist in the West bank, settlers murder people in the West bank, and the police are protecting settlers while they're doing it.
Gaza once was under the control of the PLO and Fatah, and there could've been peace, if not for Isn'trael opting to keep building settlements, encouraging people who're being forced out of their homes to pick the more violent approach of Hamas. Which unlike negotiating with an occupying force, did get them to dismantle their disgusting settlements and leave to avoid losing more soldiers.
You're dramatically oversimplifying the West Bank. It's a military occupation, I'm not going to pretend it's going well, but it's going much better than Gaza, and peace talks there have been far more serious. The Olmert proposal was an exceedingly generous proposal, and the reason Abbas didn't engage because, knowing that Hamas still had enough power that he couldn't promise peace, not even with East Jerusalem, and especially not with any kind of land swaps. The core problem right now is just that Netanyahu's government doesn't actually want to make the situation better (and a lot of his —but that problem will resolve itself by Israel's next election. His already low approval ratings have hit the gutter, and his coalition might not last much longer, although they might stick together while the war is going on.
Hamas doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. Most people don’t just wake up one day and think “hmm, terrorism sounds good to me today!” There’s always going to be a minority of people who end up having extremist views and committing violence, but a functioning state is able to keep those people under control. The fact that Netanyahu has no motivation to make the situation better is directly what causes this situation where people help Hamas out of desperation. They can’t wait for Israelis to get their act together and elect someone who is strongly motivated to make life better for Palestineans, they see that they have to live on the other side of a wall where only they have to deal with that level of poverty and violence on a regular basis and it’s unfair. If you put yourself in their shoes you’d get it too. That’s not a justification at all, it’s just empathy for their situation.
I can also empathize with Israelis who want revenge. People in Israel expect safety and don’t think of their country as a war-zone. It’s easy to think of the problem as entirely one-sided when you don’t have to deal with it, but it’s just not the case.
You've lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza's case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
"You name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that" How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
“We spoke bluntly and made it clear to the prime minister in no uncertain terms that a comprehensive deal based on the ‘everyone for everyone’ principle is a deal the families would consider, and has the support of all of Israel,” Meirav Leshem Gonen, mother of Romi Gonen, who was kidnapped from the Supernova dance festival, said on behalf of the families in a news conference following the meeting.
Netanyahu was asked about such a deal at his Saturday news conference, and acknowledged he discussed the option with the families.
“I think that elaborating on this will not help achieve our goal. In the meeting with the families, I felt emotionally helpless,” he said.
So maybe not everything. Please don't judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn't like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
edit: deleted two words I accidentally repeated
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn’t a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
Israel has traded 1000 poisoners for a single soldier in the past why is it “an insane proposition” all of a sudden? www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/…/index.html
You sure can’t be consistent.
You keep quacking dude don’t blame us for noticing it.
If you don’t understand, from the events currently at play, that Israel is most definitely not going to exchange their prisoners for hostages, then I question if you’ve been paying attention.
Im posting all over the place you keep showing up and quacking away.
I mean, some of those 1,000 prisoners were active in that recent oct.7 massacre, so I guess that Israel learned from its mistakes. As much as it pains them, they can’t effort giving Hamas forces, as they’ll regret it tenfold later.
If Israel was truly worried about regretting it later they wouldn’t be growing a whole new generation of people that have every reason to hate them.
Their actions over the decades speak FAR louder than the words they use to seem like they are trying, as does the body count of innocents.
For more than the last decade Israel spent 0 efforts on raising the Gaza population and completely left them to run their own educational/inner governmental funding. That proved to be the worst mistake they could ever do, as that educational program is pure hate fuel for religious extremists and the government funding (which btw is a lot of funding from foreigners) was used for rockets and anti-tank ammunition instead of safe houses for civilians. Heck, the only safe zones are the underground tunnels, which are only used for Hamas fighters.
All that means is that Israel should’ve either completely hammer down on stuff going in, and truly be like china murdering muslims, or completely run the region themselves, which is basically colonialism. Which option is good? None. Who can be blamed for that? The Palestinians leaders.
Don’t get me wrong, Israel’s leaders also chose a very bad option of leaving it alone and letting it grow into a monster, but let’s face it - they had no good options on what to do with Gaza. So blaming everything that’s happening purely on Israel, is just unfair. What could they have done to prevent this?
I could not declare genocide.
Do I really need to go find every quote from Bibi and Israeli Officials declaring their intent?
Not do decades of persecution PRIOR to Hamas even existing. Not have Israel fund Hamas for years. Not drop bombs on refugee camps. Not cut off food, water, electricity. Not shoot peaceful protesters. Not kill journalists. Not kill clearly marked medics.
Do I really need to go on?
“What could they have done to prevent this?” Fuck off.
Not doing any of this stuff would’ve meant a Palestinian state in Gaza led by Hamas.
Such a state would’ve killed many more jews.
Is it really that hard to see such obvious facts? What action has Palestinian ever done to warrant faith from the Israeli side that they wouldn’t get massacres if Palestinians had a state.
It’s as simple as that. Make Israelis not feel threatened, make a state. Do make Israelis feel threatened, get oppression.
And no other country in the world would do differently when feeling threatened. Some would do actual genocide and have 2 million dead.
You know who doesn't think it's insane? The families of the the hostages who I quote directly underneath that who say that it has the support of all of Israel. Are you calling them liars? Are you disparaging them and saying they're insane? This is the opposite of diplomacy, as you say.
Yeah I think someone whose family member is fucking kidnapped is not thinking rationally. Of course they will support literally anything to get their kidnapped relative back
So you are disparaging them. Classy.
Again acknowledging reality is not endorsing any specific view.
When someone you love is a victim of a tragedy you will understand that you are not, in fact, the rational robot you think you are.
Their fortunate to have such a rational person speaking on their behalf
“We came with an unequivocal demand that military action takes into account the fate of the hostages and the missing, and that any move considered will take into account the well-being of our loved ones,” Gonen said on behalf of the families.
Is that statement irrational?
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received sharp criticism after he accused security chiefs in a now-deleted social media post of failing to warn him about the impending Hamas attack prior to October 7.
First sentence of your article suggests that he regrets such a post. So… Yeah.
And... you fumbled the context and who it is speaking in the quote. Care a little more. Its good for diplomacy.
The point is why he endorsed, and his mental state.
Try to keep up
There's no point keeping up with a dog chasing it's tail in circles. I'll leave you to it kiddo.
I mean, exchanging prisoners means freeing those who massacred on oct.7, and come on, Israel is not that stupid to let them run free again. That exchange will bite them tenfold in years to come if they do it (and they realized it now, hence they don’t agree to it)
Israel doesn’t really want to be rid of Hamas.
Their investment in the group has already paid dividends.
Israel is going to try it’s best
News: Israel only catches or kills a dozen Hamas fighters and 8k citizens with over 1k children under the rubble.
Bullshit.
- Israel has killed dozens of Hamas leaders, but way more fighters. There's no way to know exactly how many, since Hamas doesn't even pretend to put out numbers that separate civilians from combatants.
- The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
- That 8k number also includes all deaths, not just at the hands of Israel, but at the hands of PIJ and Hamas themselves. Hundreds of their rockets have landed in Gaza, and they've been known to execute their own. They really love to blame Israel for these deaths, though—not just in the case of the hospital when they can make up a specific cause, but in the cases you've never heard of where, oh, there's rubble, what caused it, don't worry.
The death of each Palestinian civilian is a tragedy. Hamas provoked the war, Hamas is killing as many of them as anybody. Israel is engaged in remarkably precise targeting of enemy combatants and places an entirely unprecedented effort into warning them when they're about to strike.
This is urban warfare. This is what Hamas called for.
The 8k number is confirmed by many organizations. The whole idea that the number is disputed comes from American politics.
The 8k number is confirmed by many organizations.
name one.
Here’s a list: reuters.com/…/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-…
I bolded them for you
U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them.
“We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced,” the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters.
“It is nearly impossible at the moment to provide any UN verification on a day-to-day basis.”
Dr Mike Ryan, Executive Director of the Geneva-based World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Programme, said last week figures released by both sides “may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis, but they grossly reflect the level of death and injury on both sides of that conflict.”
New York-based Human Rights Watch also says the casualty figures have generally been reliable, and that it has not found big discrepancies in its verification of past strikes on Gaza.
“It’s worth noting that the numbers that are coming out since October 7th are generally consistent or within logic for the scale of killings one would expect, given the intensity of bombardment in such a densely populated area,” Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director at Human Rights Watch, said.
“Those numbers are in line with what one might expect, given what we’re seeing on the ground through testimony, through satellite imagery and otherwise,” he told Reuters.
Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable
U.S. President Joe Biden has cast doubt on casualty figures provided by Palestinian officials in <a href="/world/middle-east/eu-calls-humanitarian-pauses-gaza-aid-israel-raids-enclave-2023-10-26/">Gaza</a>, but international humanitarian agencies consider them broadly accurate and historically reliable.
Dan probably blocked you for that one.
Nah. Maybe he’ll come to his senses? Or maybe the UN is antisemetic?
Oh dang, someone else got a memory too :)
It’s amazing that Israel is always the victim, yet never does anything wrong.
The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera. Other news agencies never fact checked it and ran with the number attributing it to Hamas.
The number of casualities there was 471. 500 is an acceptable estimate.
(sorry, I don't know why I never posted this, I have way too many tabs open)
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
Well, let's see, where did the Telegraph get its 8,000 number from?
On Sunday the Hamas-controlled Gaza health ministry claimed the death toll among Palestinians passed 8,000, with most of them women and children.
... gee, I didn't even have to dig one layer deep, the Telegraph itself tells you it's from Hamas. =/
Let's focus on the 500, though, who cites the number as a Hamas claim verified by literally nobody else?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-blast-deaths.html
And who else commented on the number?
the Al-shifa hospital director, who estimated it was half of that.
But Hamas just knew in less than 20 minutes, somehow, that it was 500.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera.
Does the doctor work for Hamas?
Gee, I wonder how a Hamas employed doctor managed to count 500 dead bodies within 20 minutes. Israel is still trying to tally its dead, but Hamas managed to pronounce 500 people dead just in time to falsely accuse Israel of attacking the hospital on Al Jazeera?
I thought I blocked your genocide apologizing ass… well that’s fixed now.
tocopherolThe debacle prompted criticism even from allies who said Netanyahu had facilitated Hamas’s grip on Gaza as part of a strategy to divide Palestinians.
“Since coming to power in 2009, Netanyahu has built up Hamas as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority,” wrote Yoav Limor, the military affairs correspondent for Israel Hayom, a normally pro-Netanyahu newspaper. “He was warned countless times that this was a dangerous plan: instead of bolstering the pragmatic elements, he strengthened those that will never recognize Israel’s existence.”
Even normally pro-Israeli news outlets are condemning what is happening. theguardian.com/…/israeli-tanks-on-outskirts-of-g…
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions target than being directed.
There’s a lot of ways, I’ve seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I’m sure they’re also using other methods too