return2ozmaSanders calls Israel's siege on Gaza 'a serious violation of international law'
BlackmistIf a law carries no punishment, is it even a law?
Seems like more a set of guidelines that people are free to ignore whenever it suits them.
shatalIt’s unclear.
Hamas clearly and obviously committed crimes against humanity (intentionally murdering civilians, raping, torturing and kidnapping).
Israel, so far, is playing in the gray areas. It’s legal, according to international law, to lay siege on a population as long as it has a definitive and declared military purpose. It’s illegal to do it to intentionally harm civilians or to intentionally starve them.
The main problem is that Hamas is using the Palestinians and hides amongst them. That makes the legal discussion very difficult because Israel can always say that they target Hamas and everything else is just collateral damage.
Unfortunately the Palestinians are getting f’ed from both sides here.
I’m pretty sure cutting of food and water to an entire population is no gray area, it’s pretty unambiguously a warcrime.
so israel is obligated to keep providing vital supplies to the terrorists murdering them? Maybe instead of buying rockets they should have worked on their infrastructure.
If Israel wants to keep occupying an area, yes they do have the responsibility to keep supplying vital supplies to Gaza. Even if some of them would be terrorists. And while some of them could be called terrorists, you do not have permission to deliberately cause harm to everyone in largish area.
You being attacked does not allow you to commit war crimes, genocide or ethnic cleansing. This is not a grey area.
Cosmic ClericYou being attacked does not allow you to commit war crimes, genocide or ethnic cleansing. This is not a grey area.
If someone was about to kill you, and they’re hiding behind another person, and the only way you could stop them from killing you would be putting the third person at risk of being killed as well, do you have the right to defend yourself?
That’s basically the point, on a macro level, that we are all arguing about.
Are you seriously trying to argue that hamas is hiding behind 2 million civilians in Gaza, and that there were now thousands of valid military targets? Natalie Bennet couldn’t even answer a simple question a BBC interviewer posed to him about their consideration of the lives of innocent babies. Couldn’t even answer a simple question. This man is supposed to be one of the leaders of the nation.
Are you seriously trying to argue that hamas is hiding behind 2 million civilians in Gaza,
Its been widly reported that the Palestinians are being used by Hamas as human shields.
and that there were now thousands of valid military targets?
No. I was just stating the problem, not offering a solution. Its a very real dilemma.
What do you do, when your enemy is behind an innocent person who is being used as a shield.
But this is that justification in that context. “Oh, they are using the civillian population as human shields. Looks like we are going to have to kill everyone.” Like 2 million stand between the IDF and the hostages. So silly. I would hope the IDF leadership is a little more disciplined than that logic.
But this is that justification in that context.
I’m asking it as a moral dilemma, a thought experiment, generally speaking, and not to this current situation.
Fundamentally, is it ethically/morally right to risk/kill an innocent person who is being used as a shield, when trying to kill someone who is trying to kill you?
“Oh, they are using the civillian population as human shields. Looks like we are going to have to kill everyone.”
They’re not saying that, at least I haven’t heard them say that, and I’ve been watching the coverage daily.
They’re definately risking everyone in the area, but they’ve also warned everyone in the area to get out of the area, before they go in.
You have to be pretty naive about how Israeli govt. Leadership tables these kind of things, which you could be forgiven for if you don’t follow these things. But most American Jews, myself included, know how messed up Likud’s approach to this kind of stuff is.
People responding keep not answering the point I’m asking, instead of trying to turn it into me attacking Israel, for some reason.
Fundamentally, is it ethically/morally right to risk/kill an innocent person who is being used as a shield, when trying to kill someone who is trying to kill you?
Because it is extremely disingenuous to frame it like this. Even in this hypothetical scenario, you absolutely have the responsibility to try to save that innocent person’s life as well as your own.
While we could imagine hypothetical scenario where killing civilians is justified, it is pretty clear that is not the scenario Israel is facing right now.
Because it is extremely disingenuous to frame it like this.
The hell it is, that’s just an excuse for not wanting to answer the question.
My question gets down to the crux of the point, where the arguing from all of us comes from, and what should be done next comes from. And it needs answering.
Even in this hypothetical scenario
It’s not hypothetical, it’s happening right now, in real time, in front of us.
you absolutely have the responsibility to try to save that innocent person’s life as well as your own.
So does that mean you attack or not attack the person trying to kill you? Who’s life is more important, your own, or the person being used as a shield?
While we could imagine hypothetical scenario where killing civilians is justified, it is pretty clear that is not the scenario Israel is facing right now.
Well, Israel has to go into Gaza to destroy Hamas, and Hamas is using Palestinian citizens for shields, so that’s exactly the scenario Israel is facing right now.
You can’t hand-wave that away, because it’s uncomfortable to deal with.
Yes, the carpet bombing campaign has been Israeli troops going into Gaza. Oh wait, no it hasn’t they have been amassing reservists at the border.
This includes multiple of my relatives who are Israeli reservists. Obviously I do not want them to be put into harms way, but I fail to see how carpet bombing a place where 2 million people live does that. Perhaps you have some magical insight that my Jewish reservist relatives don’t.
Starving them out, cutting off water, power to hospitals… this isn’t pre-emptively attacking terrorists using human shields, its cruel and unusual collective punishment, and even the govt. leaders of Israel don’t bother to try to justify it when they are actually asked. Their response to these questions from journalists haven’t been “these are human shields.” The response has been “you didn’t talk about dresden in WWII.” Just disgusting.
Yes, the carpet bombing campaign has been Israeli troops going into Gaza. Oh wait, no it hasn’t they have been amassing reservists at the border.
You don’t see the carpet bombing as a step one and step two, which is coming very soon, is Israel actually going into Gaza with force, with all those reservists they called up?
Yes, but I don’t understand how carpet bombing protects them or helps them rescue hostages. They will still be in grave danger if they enter gaza, perhaps even more danger in this environment. It’s hard to pick out any military doctrine that suggests otherwise. This has been a repeated criticism of this type of military activity, across campaigns all over the world and recent history. I supposed you could compare it to allied bombing of axis forces, but I would argue that those campaigns were carried out as part of a much more stringently determined military strategy, rather than as a per reactionary action.
They will still be in grave danger if they enter gaza, perhaps even more danger in this environment.
The opposite, actually. There would be less places for Hamas to attack from, and easier to see the battlefield and all the participants in it.
Yes, I can acknowledge the tactical logic of it. But this strategy hasn’t played out very well in just about every modern conflict ever.
Perhaps you have some magical insight that my Jewish reservist relatives don’t.
All I was trying to do was get a conversation going on the ethics of attacking someone who’s using third-party innocence as shields, and not literally pass judgment on what’s going on on the ground today, just using it as an example for the overall ethical discussion.
There was a scifi book I read some decades ago they had the exact same scenario, and I was just trying to get input from today’s Humanity to see if it jives with the solution that the author of the novel had come up with.
People are being too emotional and defensive to have these kind of conversations though it seems.
If you want to talk about ethics on Lemmy, go create an ethics discussion community or host your own server. Discussing “ethics” in the context of Israel’s actions and policies is something that I have done over and over and over, unproductively. In less tense times, it is usually stuff like “should driving on highways be illegal on saturdays around the orthodox community?” and stuff like that.
If you come onto a thread that is specifically about what is going on Israel right now, and say “I’m just trying to have an ethical discussion,” it comes off as extremely disingenuous. I’m sorry.
If you come onto a thread that is specifically about what is going on Israel right now, and say “I’m just trying to have an ethical discussion,” it comes off as extremely disingenuous. I’m sorry.
You’re taking my words out of context of the whole conversation that’s happening, and being intellectually dishonest.
I was speaking about that question, as well as the larger discussion on what’s happening in Gaza right now.
Again, no it’s not disingenuous because it covers what’s being discussed in the very same topic. It’s real time and it’s happening.
You cannot hand wave that away as much as you want to. Both can be true, and allowed.
You’re just being emotional and defensive when you don’t need to be, to protect your team.
De-railing a conversation is a very well recognized form of logical fallacy. De-railing a thread is considered very poor etiquette on internet forums. I’m sorry for assuming we were having a conversation about the topic of the thread.
De-railing
One person’s derailing is another person’s continuing and/or expanding.
I’m sorry for assuming we were having a conversation about the topic of the thread.
I accept your apology.