balderdashMorality
Hot SaucermanThis just in: Literally everything in life is made up as we go along.
AggressivelyPassiveExcept table manners. Those are dictated by the Universe itself!
shootwhatsmynameWhat do you do with rude tables?
Use them as firewood
DreamButtRead somewhere that the elbows thing comes from the days where tables were just planks of wood sitting on something. Your elbows would tip the board over so it was a dick move to knock everyone’s food over. Anyway idk if it’s true but it’s a neat idea
Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody’s gonna die.
Come watch TV?
CarbonIceDragonIs it actually? As far as I’m aware, it doesn’t really make any statements that anything is moral or immoral, nor is it a framework that could be used to determine such things by itself, more so a statement on the validity of such things. Or in other word, is it really a moral thesis, or is it a thesis about moral thesis?
Zo0Yeah I don’t understand the point the meme is trying to make
You could argue that moral relativism is a metaethical thesis and so is not straight away self-defeating. Even so, moral relativists often go on to claim that we shouldn’t judge the moral acts of other cultures based on what we take to be universal moral standards.
I’m not smart enough to understand anything in this conversation, but “Metaethical” seems like it would be a good metal band name
Followed by Postmetaethical when they lose a member
This sounds like Goedels theorem. How could a philosophy be consistent and have an opinion about every moral topic?
Yooo. You are onto something here.
I’m not sure morality would have the same problems with recursion that math has.
I’m not sure it’s the SAME but if there were a system of created ethics that were able to speak to everything and do so consistently… Wouldn’t we know?
Why would we? Ethics can be just as opaque as any other subject. It took us thousands of years to get economics, psychology, etc. to where they are.
Is it that it’s wrong or simply that it lacks proper context? Like if you’re going to judge a culture you should learn the culture that seems obvious even without the arguments about morality
You’re on the right track here. It’s a metaethical claim, not a moral one.
According to Morality and Ethics 101, a universal moral truth is an ethic.
pitninjaI’ve never heard a rational defense of moral relativism that made any sense. If there are no moral truths, then serial killers have done nothing wrong for example. If a moral relativist admits that there are some moral truths, then moral relativism is completely indefensible. At that point, you’re just arguing over what is and what is not a moral truth.
How about the fact that all morals are made up and therefore obviously relative to those who made them up? There may be instinctual preference on many, but that doesn’t make it a universal rule.
The fact the morality was invented makes it synthetic but not necessarily relative. Numbers are also “made up”.
Its possible that moral truths are objective but our interpretation of these objective truths is imperfect and therefore seems relative.
To use another commenters example, the fact that killing is not morally blameworthy in some cases doesn’t mean that an absolute moral truth doesn’t exist but just that our concept of killing is just too broad to express it.
the fact that all morals are made up
You’re starting from the basic axiom of moral relativism. A moral absolutist would disagree with this axiom.
And all I would have to do would be reference the multitudes of cultures across the earth and through time that have vastly differing morals.
A moral absolutist would argue that most, or even all, are wrong in one way or another. One can be a moral absolutist without claiming to be able to evaluate the morality of any particular scenario.
To provide an analogous example, there is a two-player game called Hex for which it has been proven that there exists a dominant strategy for the first player, but a generalized winning strategy is unsolved. One can soundly assert that such a strategy exists without knowing what it is. Likewise, its not fundamentally invalid to assert that there exist absolute moral truths without knowing what they are.
Most people would go with murder but then again there’s honor killings.
Universal moral truths. Like absolutes. We can say killing is bad, but many would say killing a mass murderer currently on a murder spree would be more moral than letting them kill a bunch of people.
If there are no moral truths, then serial killers have done nothing wrong for example.
This is a sort of circular argument, it’s premised on the notion that serial killers have done something objectively wrong.
If you start with the notion that some things are objectively wrong, then of course you’ll come to the conclusion that objective morality exists, because it’s one of the assumptions you started with.
It all starts with defining what morality means. The way I would define morality is behaviors that maximize flourishing for sentient creatures and minimize suffering. While it is clearly difficult to quantify flourishing and suffering, there are behaviors that clearly cause suffering in this world and impede the opportunity for flourishing and, by the above definition of morality, are plainly immoral. The way I see it, rejecting the possibility that flourishing and suffering can be quantified at all is the only argument that can be made against moral absolutism. Everything else is just quibbling over relevant variables across the spectrum of available behaviors to determine what makes them more or less moral. There is always a behavior that is objectively the more moral choice, but it might be difficult in practice to determine which is the more moral choice due to a lack of available relevant data. The absence of said data shouldn’t be assumed to be because it doesn’t/can’t exist, but rather that it hasn’t been collected. Rejecting the idea that there is always a more moral behavior amongst several choices is the dangerous assumption, imo.
Merely defining a word is semantics, and the discussion over objective vs subjective morality is about the nature of these moral claims.
Is there some karmic energy in the universe, or a god above all that judges right from wrong? That’s how people often anchor their morality in an objective framework.
From a purely secular framework, morality appears to be subjective, just a set of practical rules that let creatures interact in mutually beneficial ways.
If you personally like the idea of all sentient creatures avoiding suffering, it’s still a subjective preference, not a moral system that is rooted in some kind of good and bad properties that exist outside the judgment of the creatures themselves.
There’s a fundamental misunderstanding here that seems suspiciously like a bad faith argument.
Just because there aren’t moral truths doesn’t mean a serial killer did nothing wrong. You seem to be stuck on finding a single contradiction and using that to dismiss everything else related as irrelevant. That’s not actually how the world works.
Similarly in physics, the existence of non-newtonian fluids, doesn’t invalidate Newton’s work in fluid dynamics.
Sure, and how does your understanding contend with the concept of a mass murderer of Nazis?
If there are no moral truths, then serial killers have done nothing wrong for example
This does not follow from moral relativism. Moral relativism simply states the morality of serial killers is determined by people rather than an absolute truth.
For example, if you add the detail of “serial killer of humans”, most societies would deem that morally wrong. In contrast, “serial killer of wasps” would be considered perfectly fine by many. A moral relativist would say the difference between these two is determined by society.
hexaflexagonbear [he/him]I’m pretty sure “moral relativism” is in the realm of metaethics and not ethics. There’s a distinction between making a claim about morality and making a claim about how moral claims are made.
urshanabi [he/they]Does it really play ball in the context of metaethics?
I’ll define morality and ethics as a normative system (operating on different levels of abstraction, with different targets as their focus, but maintaining the same kind of interaction) emergent from imperfect information transmission between any two points in space-time, i.e. the same body at t=n, t=m; or two different bodies at the same time (just to account for quantum stuff) which occur at level of complex life. I’ll say life is any system with the capacity to maintain or decrease entropy (Schrödinger is where I first saw this) for some period of time, and intelligent life meets some threshold for delay or non-direct determinants of information from outside the continuous body to manipulate its environment to a lower entropy state, one which does not as of yet have the same quality of decreasing or maintaining entropy as the intelligent lifeform does.
In this case, metaethics is a distinction in the realm of a type of interactions yet still a part of them. It’s like one pizza, you can cut it in half and say you have a left half and right each belonging to the meta and non-meta partitions. Or you can say that what we regularly refer to as morals or ethics is simply the toppings, metaethics is the dough which is frankly too frequently ignored in discussions of ethics and pizza-quality. The dough similarly provides the framework or support for the toppings, without which you would have a spread out cheesy and saucy salad (if veggies are a topping, otherwise you have what I make in the middle of the night when I don’t want the microwave to sound off to warm up food that would fill me up) which couldn’t be characterized as pizza.
Sorry I think I changed topic there, I hope some of the point comes across.
Well now I’m hungry
So am I :/
I pizza recently, I can’t justify ordering it again this soon…
ITT: bad philosophical arguments
Welcome to every discussion on every digital medium that's ever existed?
Think you mean Welcome to Earth
What’s important is you all remember I Am Right And You Are Wrong
Well, this one seems to be going over better than your last philosophy meme.
I appreciated both of them, by the way.
Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment. I’m still going to take a pause on the philosophy memes as I literally can’t stop myself from arguing in the comments and I should be working lol
That some One Weird Trick has been used to academically shoot down logical positivism as well.
The idea that only matter exists and that only things that can be measured in a laboratory environment exist is itself an idea that can not be measured in a laboratory environment.
At least the logical positivists where philosophically rigorous enough to drop the view when they realized it’s untenable.
Academically, yes. Logical positivism persisted and had an unofficial resurgence among the “academia is bunk” junk/pop science crowd. I saw it pop up, by name, more than a few times on in years past.
M68040 [they/them]My main takeaway from philosophy is that I hate philosophy and mostly just want to wing it. So much hair splitting
Dr. CoomerIs it not?